Poppies

[BigGully]

If I moved to america, then america started a questionable war against england, shooting and bombing people all over including brighton, possibly killing my friends, co-workers, family, would I have to support the american troops? Would you be able to do that?

How about if Hollingdean held a training base sponsored by the British Government training terrorists that were indiscriminately blowing up your American neighbours and their children in the name of the Vicar of Dibley, then you might think twice !!!

 

[Tooting Gull]

Have we?

Martin Samuel: Check dates before turning a poppy debate into poppycock | Mail Online

I know Fat Mart is your pin-up boy, but that is a ludicrously constructed argument. He's found contrived reasons to dismiss all the dates where it was relevant. Not gone as far back as Nov 1st, as he easily could have. And only gone back to 2001.

 

[Acker79]

No of course not, but then I wouldnt stay in america, i'd have the courage of my convictions and come home.

Leaving the better, safe life you've built for yourself to return to a war zone where you have no home, no job, how noble. The majority of people wouldn't be so eager to make that switch. Either for fear of death, or due to having the courage of their convictions and not wanting to fight a war that has a very questionable basis.

 

[Acker79]

I know Fat Mart is your pin-up boy, but that is a ludicrously constructed argument. He's found contrived reasons to dismiss all the dates where it was relevant. Not gone as far back as Nov 1st, as he easily could have. And only gone back to 2001.

Because prior to 2001 it wasn't possible to embroider the poppies into the shirts, apparently. It's not really that sinister a stopping point. And not everyone rushes to get a poppy the second they appear.

 

[Acker79]

How about if Hollingdean held a training base sponsored by the British Government training terrorists that were indiscriminately blowing up your American neighbours and their children in the name of the Vicar of Dibley, then you might think twice !!!

Think twice about what? I still wouldn't support the troops dropping bombs and shooting my friends and family (assuming I was confident they were nothing to do with the training camps). Even if I knew they were part of it, I wouldn't support them, I would understand their perceived need to do so, but I wouldn't support them. I wouldn't criticise them either.

 

[User removed 4]

Leaving the better, safe life you've built for yourself to return to a war zone where you have no home, no job, how noble. The majority of people wouldn't be so eager to make that switch. Either for fear of death, or due to having the courage of their convictions and not wanting to fight a war that has a very questionable basis.

Er, can you tell me whereabouts in Pakistan or Bangladesh fits that description ?Afghanistan maybe, but if you are unable to return home due to the Taliban surely you'd be supporting British troops there ,unless you support the taliban but just prefer to do it from the comfort of a house in the decadent west.

 

[Buzzer]

How about if Hollingdean held a training base sponsored by the British Government training terrorists that were indiscriminately blowing up your American neighbours and their children in the name of the Vicar of Dibley, then you might think twice !!!

Whereabouts in Hollingdean?

 

[Simster]

Bushy, there are people you would consider as English as you who don't always support what our troops are doing - even before Muslims, or whoever else. That's just a fact, and you have to allow for not everyone sharing your view of the military, and their contribution.

However in general, I would say the wider appreciation for the armed forces has grown in recent years. Look at the growth in support for things like 'Help for Heroes', it's become one of things that celebrities, for example, have to get involved in. Even if this particular poppy row has got a bit silly at times, it shows a lot of people care about it.

For what its worth, I am one of those people (usually) who hasn't always agreed with the policies/governments that send our troops into battle. But once they're there, then you have to get behind them and recognise the bravery. I think a lot of people are like that.

Wise words.

I'd add that respect for the armed forces has actually grown in recent years. Most people recognise and respect that our armed forces go where their democratically elected government tell them to go, even if that means f***ing pricks like Tony Blair completely disregarding British lives by sending them into illegal and unnecessary wars. There is also an awful lot of sympathy for those in Afghanistan, where there is a feeling we can never actually win.

 

[BigGully]

Whereabouts in Hollingdean?

Usual place ......... sssshhhhhhhhh

 

[BLOCK F]

The fact that this 'discussion' has been going for 6 pages and continues,suggests to me that to many people,myself included,Remembrance Day has to a certain extent lost its original meaning.
To some it means remembering those who lost their lives in wars and to others I fear it has turned into some kind of nationalistic,jingoistic flag waving experience.
The quiet dignity of ceremonies all over the country seem to have been overtaken by a compulsory 'thou shalt wear a poppy 24/7 from mid October until Remembrance Sunday' kind of attitude and if you don't then you don't care.This attitude culminated in the FIFA/FA/Cameron/Prince William farce.
The danger is that,as someone has already stated,the two don't mix and a number of people who support Remembrance will be alienated from the showing of respect,that the poppy should represent,because of the latter.

 

[arkan]

Er, can you tell me whereabouts in Pakistan or Bangladesh fits that description ?Afghanistan maybe, but if you are unable to return home due to the Taliban surely you'd be supporting British troops there ,unless you support the taliban but just prefer to do it from the comfort of a house in the decadent west.

the tribal areas in pakistan, such as Swat or Warizstan, an episode on Unreported World goes on about the Taliban operations in those areas.

 

[User removed 4]

Perfectly summed up in a much more concise way than I managed.

My major issue is with Bushy's sweeping generalisations about the Muslim community AS A WHOLE.

The very fact that none of the usual suspects,who would usually be queueing up to pick holes in my argument , have said nothing , surely tells you that your view about "their" people and our troops is not universally shared.

 

[Common as Mook]

The very fact that none of the usual suspects,who would usually be queueing up to pick holes in my argument , have said nothing , surely tells you that your view about "their" people and our troops is not universally shared.

Never said it was. Couldn't give a toss who agrees with me or not. Doesn't make me like your ridiculous generalisations any more.

 

[User removed 4]

the tribal areas in pakistan, such as Swat or Warizstan, an episode on Unreported World goes on about the Taliban operations in those areas.

Then perhaps relocation to another less troubled area of Pakistan is the answer, rather than whining about crusaders, from the comfort of a council house in Tower Hamlets.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Because prior to 2001 it wasn't possible to embroider the poppies into the shirts, apparently.

Are you being serious? No embroidery prior to 2001?

What the f*** was the Bayeux Tapestry then? A massive iron-on transfer?

 

[Simster]

The very fact that none of the usual suspects,who would usually be queueing up to pick holes in my argument , have said nothing , surely tells you that your view about "their" people and our troops is not universally shared.

True, in my case.

As far as I can see, this "debate" stemmed from Common as mook accusing you of "dribble and frothing" when making a valid point here:

Because it isnt until recently that we've had a sizeable minority of people that are demonstrably antagonistic towards british service personnel, it's what happens when large sections of the muslim community have little or no interaction with the host country ,and see themselves as having more in common with and loyalty to a fellow muslim in iraq or afghanistan, unpalatable as it may be to those of you who continue to persist in the myth that we live in one joyful multicultural melting pot, huge swathes of immigrant communities have settled here and created mini versions of the country they came from, retaining their lifestyle,traditions and language,just with the added benefit of the welfare state and minimal contact with the local population.
I'm just waiting for the predictable response about expat brits in spain , well at least the spanish dont have their government and state broadcaster regularly extolling the virtues of the british community and the massive contribution they make to spanish life, and i cant remember the last time there was a pro gibraltar march through marbella.
As for wearing a poppy, like a previous poster said , it SHOWS you care , all the mealy mouthed comments like " I contribute but choose not to wear a poppy" are a cop out, either be up front about buying and wearing a poppy, and the reasons behind it , or do the reverse , and have the balls to say why you dont.

Since then, he hasn't had the bollocks to specifically point out which bits of that post were "dribble and frothing". And that's because you said nothing that wasn't right. He should either debate the specific points raised or shut the f*** up so as not to come across like a geeky know-it-all sixth former.

FWIW, I think you are often far too quick to rubbish non-indeginous cultures in this country, but you're spot on in this instance. Unlike you, I don't see much wrong with people respecting their heritage, and I don't see why those people should be made to choose between an allegiance to the UK or their religion either. However, the message of the poppy is an honourable one, and those people disrepecting it whilst hiding behind a religion should not be here. There are moderate British muslim groups that are right behind the poppy campaign and that is good enough for me. It really is that simple.

 

[arkan]

Then perhaps relocation to another less troubled area of Pakistan is the answer, rather than whining about crusaders, from the comfort of a council house in Tower Hamlets.

to be fair it is easy to say something like this in our situation, however if you were living in some god forsaken village on a mountain in pakistan, or a mudhut in chad for example, would you not try your hardest to make a better life for yourself? Yes i am sure they could move to somewhere more advantagious within their own country, but its like saying you are moving from peckham to crawley, one shit area to a better but still shit area.
I know if i was one of them i would do anything to get to somewhere like the UK, which is a soft case and gives out money/accomidation/work willy nilly. You cant blame the people who want to move here, you have to blame the government for making the UK so attractive for immigration. Remember we are the last stop before hitting the atlantic, thus meaning more money that immigrants have to spend to get here in the first place. If conditions were right i am sure most of them would rather stop in Germany or France or Italy etc etc, but they actually take a hard approach, unlike us.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

However, the message of the poppy is an honourable one, and those people disrepecting it whilst hiding behind a religion should not be here.

The same goes for those using the poppy to push their own agendas like certain newspapers and possibly the FA.

 

[Simster]

The same goes for those using the poppy to push their own agendas like certain newspapers and possibly the FA.

I fully agree. (Even bushy agrees when it comes to the FA)

 

[User removed 4]

True, in my case.

As far as I can see, this "debate" stemmed from Common as mook accusing you of "dribble and frothing" when making a valid point here:



Since then, he hasn't had the bollocks to specifically point out which bits of that post were "dribble and frothing". And that's because you said nothing that wasn't right. He should either debate the specific points raised or shut the f*** up so as not to come across like a geeky know-it-all sixth former.

FWIW, I think you are often far too quick to rubbish non-indeginous cultures in this country, but you're spot on in this instance. Unlike you, I don't see much wrong with people respecting their heritage, and I don't see why those people should be made to choose between an allegiance to the UK or their religion either. However, the message of the poppy is an honourable one, and those people disrepecting it whilst hiding behind a religion should not be here. There are moderate British muslim groups that are right behind the poppy campaign and that is good enough for me. It really is that simple.

Neither do I when it doesnt conflict with living life here, but lets be honest if someone lives life as a strict Muslim, do you really think that is going to be conducive to integrating with the local community? For what it's worth i interviewed a Bosnian Muslim for a job on my desk, top bloke , and by far the best candidate for the job, likes a beer and women, very able to fit into "blokey" culture, his take on things was that his religion was a matter for him , and his relationship with god wasnt going to be dictated to him by some fundamentalist imam,which i have no problem with, but lets be honest if a bloke turns up with a long beard , wanting to pray five times a day and complaining about having to go to places of ill repute to entertain customers it's not going to work.