Poppies

[User removed 4]

Can you not empathise with that stance at all? Because if not, the argument ends here as it is pointless.

Dont be f***ing ridiculous, so i'm supposed to treat these people as " just as british as you are " but at the same time empathise that they are upset that we are shooting at "their" people ? Laughable to be honest, and says a great deal about the airy fairy notions that are bandied about regarding nationality and social cohesion.

 

[Common as Mook]

Dont be f***ing ridiculous, so i'm supposed to treat these people as " just as british as you are " but at the same time empathise that they are upset that we are shooting at "their" people ? Laughable to be honest, and says a great deal about the airy fairy notions that are bandied about regarding nationality and social cohesion.

Great. Well done.

 

[User removed 4]

Great. Well done.

What you really mean is " I cant really argue with that"

 

[Common as Mook]

What you really mean is " I cant really argue with that"

Considering I have just spent my morning arguing with that, yes I can. It's just pointless as you are so arrogant and your hatred of things non British is so entrenched that it is a completely pointless argument.

 

[BigGully]

Can you not empathise with that stance at all? Because if not, the argument ends here as it is pointless.

Would it not be helpful to those that have recently chosen to reside within our own communities to firstly empathise with the host nations general culture and beliefs.

 

[User removed 4]

Considering I have just spent my morning arguing with that, yes I can. It's just pointless as you are so arrogant and your hatred of things non British is so entrenched that it is a completely pointless argument.

I dont have a hatred of things non british, I have a hatred of having the piss taken out of me and mine, and being expected to treat people as just as british as me , with all the benefits that this status brings , whilst also empathising that they are upset our soldiers are shooting at "their people " is a piss take ,if you cant see that , there really is no hope.

 

[Pbseagull]

Would it not be helpful to those that have recently chosen to reside within our own communities to firstly empathise with the host nations general culture and beliefs.

Yes

 

[Common as Mook]

Would it not be helpful to those that have recently chosen to reside within our own communities to firstly empathise with the host nations general culture and beliefs.

Yep, I agree. Bushy has made some valid points about there being the need for greater integration.

You seem an intelligent enough bloke; do you not see that if it's your people being shot at, you may not be particularly supportive of our troops who are doing the shooting? Surely that is a basic human instinct rather than a pointed snub at any kind of way of life or culture?

The crux of it (as explained by me and ignored by Bushy countless times on this thread) is that the Poppy campaign has, in my opinion, had too much emphasis on peripherals rather than what it should be about, remembering the dead.

 

[User removed 4]

Yep, I agree. Bushy has made some valid points about there being the need for greater integration.

You seem an intelligent enough bloke; do you not see that if it's your people being shot at, you may not be particularly supportive of our troops who are doing the shooting? Surely that is a basic human instinct rather than a pointed snub at any kind of way of life or culture?

The crux of it (as explained by me and ignored by Bushy countless times on this thread) is that the Poppy campaign has, in my opinion, had too much emphasis on peripherals rather than what it should be about, remembering the dead.

You're missing the screaming , shouting , glaring f***ing point that if you live here and are "british", THEN OUR TROOPS ARE " YOUR f***ing PEOPLE"

 

[Common as Mook]

You're missing the screaming , shouting , glaring f***ing point that if you live here and are "british", THEN OUR TROOPS ARE " YOUR f***ing PEOPLE"

So, being British and having any other cultural or ethical background are mutually exclusive?

 

[Tooting Gull]

I really hope the 'meaning' of the poppy doesn't get hijacked by pro-military, pro-war and extreme right-wing groups as the Union Jack did back in the 70s and 80s. There is nothing wrong with the original meaning - to show respect for those who lost their lives serving their country. That is not a political point, it is just respect, pure and simple. That's why I wear one.

But the minute it becomes more political, and symbolising support for a particular policy or conflict, that meaning will be weakened. This has happened in other charity organisations. On the other 'side', politically, Amnesty International is supposed to be a human rights lobbying organisation, pure and simple. It's hard for it to have no political angle, since many of the people it campaigns for are imprisoned by oppressive regimes, but it became very left-wing for a while which caused rows internally.

I have found this England football poppy row a bit embarrassing, it makes us look very immature as a nation. There have been dozens of England matches in the period Nov 1 to Nov 15 over the past 130 years without this fuss. Smacks of a bored reporter at the agenda-led Mail seeing all their Christmases come at once.

 

[User removed 4]

So, being British and having any other cultural or ethical background are mutually exclusive?

If you mean regarding a foreigner from wherever , as more "your people" than British service personnel , then yes.

 

[User removed 4]

I really hope the 'meaning' of the poppy doesn't get hijacked by pro-military, pro-war and extreme right-wing groups as the Union Jack did back in the 70s and 80s. There is nothing wrong with the original meaning - to show respect for those who lost their lives serving their country. That is not a political point, it is just respect, pure and simple. That's why I wear one.

But the minute it becomes more political, and symbolising support for a particular policy or conflict, that meaning will be weakened. This has happened in other charity organisations. On the other 'side', politically, Amnesty International is supposed to be a human rights lobbying organisation, pure and simple. It's hard for it to have no political angle, since many of the people it campaigns for are imprisoned by oppressive regimes, but it became very left-wing for a while which caused rows internally.

I have found this England football poppy row a bit embarrassing, it makes us look very immature as a nation. There have been dozens of England matches in the period Nov 1 to Nov 15 over the past 130 years without this fuss. Smacks of a bored reporter at the agenda-led Mail seeing all their Christmases come at once.

What's so wrong with being pro military ? for the record i think fifa are probably right regarding the poppy row, but if it wasnt for the military, you might not have the freedom to be so anti.

 

[Acker79]

I have found this England football poppy row a bit embarrassing, it makes us look very immature as a nation. There have been dozens of England matches in the period Nov 1 to Nov 15 over the past 130 years without this fuss. Smacks of a bored reporter at the agenda-led Mail seeing all their Christmases come at once.

Have we?

Martin Samuel: Check dates before turning a poppy debate into poppycock | Mail Online

Certainly, November international fixtures have long had a place on the international calendar, but appropriate games during the period in which poppies are traditionally worn are rare.

Remembrance Day is November 11; Remembrance Sunday is the second Sunday in November. So last year, England played on November 17, three days after Remembrance Sunday.

In 2009, England played on November 14, six days after Remembrance Sunday and three days after Remembrance Day. In 2008, more than a week had passed from the final service of remembrance to England’s game against Germany. In fact, there have been only two occasions in the last decade with suitable circumstances.

In 2001, England played Sweden on November 10, but the technology to work poppies into shirt designs did not exist. Then, in 2005, England played on November 12 with Remembrance Sunday the next day, but the fixture was against Argentina in Geneva and the poppy issue would have been inflammatory, so did not arise.

 

[Tooting Gull]

You're missing the screaming , shouting , glaring f***ing point that if you live here and are "british", THEN OUR TROOPS ARE " YOUR f***ing PEOPLE"

Bushy, there are people you would consider as English as you who don't always support what our troops are doing - even before Muslims, or whoever else. That's just a fact, and you have to allow for not everyone sharing your view of the military, and their contribution.

However in general, I would say the wider appreciation for the armed forces has grown in recent years. Look at the growth in support for things like 'Help for Heroes', it's become one of things that celebrities, for example, have to get involved in. Even if this particular poppy row has got a bit silly at times, it shows a lot of people care about it.

 

[Acker79]

If I moved to america, then america started a questionable war against england, shooting and bombing people all over including brighton, possibly killing my friends, co-workers, family, would I have to support the american troops? Would you be able to do that?

 

[BigGully]

Yep, I agree. Bushy has made some valid points about there being the need for greater integration.

You seem an intelligent enough bloke; do you not see that if it's your people being shot at, you may not be particularly supportive of our troops who are doing the shooting? Surely that is a basic human instinct rather than a pointed snub at any kind of way of life or culture?

The crux of it (as explained by me and ignored by Bushy countless times on this thread) is that the Poppy campaign has, in my opinion, had too much emphasis on peripherals rather than what it should be about, remembering the dead.

This is the fundamental point.

Some within ( currently the Muslim ) communities do not have any loyalty towards our Country, which aint a great starting point.

There are degrees of indifference towards us and whilst accepting many have fully integrated and continue their worship of their faith not blighted by hatred or bigotry, there remains parts of their communities, which offer an environment where hatred towards 'us' and our history is encouraged.

Personally I think this has engendered a more nationalistic response by many of us, which includes poppy wearing, to symbolise our patriotism and our acknowledgement of those brave kids that died so young not to even recognise their sacrifice is damning. ( however just not wearing a poppy isnt an accurate indication of anyones view ).

 

[Tooting Gull]

What's so wrong with being pro military ? for the record i think fifa are probably right regarding the poppy row, but if it wasnt for the military, you might not have the freedom to be so anti.

For what its worth, I am one of those people (usually) who hasn't always agreed with the policies/governments that send our troops into battle. But once they're there, then you have to get behind them and recognise the bravery. I think a lot of people are like that.

 

[User removed 4]

If I moved to america, then america started a questionable war against england, shooting and bombing people all over including brighton, possibly killing my friends, co-workers, family, would I have to support the american troops? Would you be able to do that?

No of course not, but then I wouldnt stay in america, i'd have the courage of my convictions and come home.

 

[Common as Mook]

This is the fundamental point.

Some within ( currently the Muslim ) communities do not have any loyalty towards our Country, which aint a great starting point.

There are degrees of indifference towards us and whilst accepting many have fully integrated and continue their worship of their faith not blighted by hatred or bigotry, there remains parts of their communities, which offer an environment where hatred towards 'us' and our history is encouraged.

Personally I think this has engendered a more nationalistic response by many of us, which includes poppy wearing, to symbolise our patriotism and our acknowledgement of those brave kids that died so young not to even recognise their sacrifice is damning. ( however just not wearing a poppy isnt an accurate indication of anyones view ).

Perfectly summed up in a much more concise way than I managed.

My major issue is with Bushy's sweeping generalisations about the Muslim community AS A WHOLE.