Malaysian airline crash

[martyn20]

I don't do links , besides not sure how to do them it was reported by the UN , and believe it or not I have seen the reports on CNN , the odd time on BBC 24 hour and may be you should look at France 24 hour , Al Jazzeer , Euronews , don't worry I only take RT with a pinch of salt . As I said you keep looking at mainstream news you may miss it as not reported.

The UN has recently thanked Russia for providing support for fleeing Ukrainians but they have been fleeing the fighting not the Ukrainian government, is that what you are talking about?

 

[Creaky]

I don't just look at maintsream media, but if you have nothing to back up what you are saying it's hard to take it on face value. Guess I will have to do the research myself and build my own picture?

Have a look at this link

http://www.globalresearch.ca/media-...ukraine-1600-soldiers-reported-killed/5392193

The casualty figures were released on the 10th of July 2014 by Ukraine’s Ministry of Health.
“The amount on civilian casualties is, unfortunately, greater than the military ones,” Vasily Lazoryshynets, deputy health minister, …
“In the area of the operation in eastern Ukraine, 478 civilians have died, including 30 women and seven children,”he said.
According to Lazoryshynets , a further 1,392 people were injured in the fighting, with 104 women and 14 children among them.
“Two hundred and seventy-nine currently remain in hospital,” he added.

 

[martyn20]

Have a look at this link

http://www.globalresearch.ca/media-...ukraine-1600-soldiers-reported-killed/5392193

So why are they bombing these areas?

 

[Creaky]

And the situation was about the same for young, old and middle aged people in countries across the world in 2009 if you remember what was going on. Things have changed, something slightly more up to date would be better. Things in Ukraine were very different 5 years ago

Bit of a wriggle there -

Your statement was:- "Many people in East Germany want a return to old days of Communism" - followed by a question mark.

That link shows that a GREAT many did 5 years ago - even if Germany were now a Utopia it would be reasonable to assume there would still be many who still want a return to the old days of Communism.

 

[Creaky]

So why are they bombing these areas?

End justifying the means?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Have a look at this link

http://www.globalresearch.ca/media-...ukraine-1600-soldiers-reported-killed/5392193

Even in that heavily spun article, at no point does it mention that all these civilian deaths were caused by the Ukrainian military. The quotes are being used cleverly, and linked with agenda driven statements. How many were killed by Putin's tourists ?

 

[dingodan]

[MENTION=19650]marty[/MENTION]n There isn't a great deal reported about the plight of civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/12/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-tens-of-thousands-flee

 

[martyn20]

[MENTION=19650]marty[/MENTION]n There isn't a great deal reported about the plight of civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/12/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-tens-of-thousands-flee

It would seem that the worse areas are those held by the rebels, they do not seem very interested in helping the civilian population, there is no water or medical care? The Ukrainian government is stuffed really they can't leave the rebels to take over as much of the land as they want but fighting back is causing civilian casualties. Is that about right?

 

[Czechmate]

The UN has recently thanked Russia for providing support for fleeing Ukrainians but they have been fleeing the fighting not the Ukrainian government, is that what you are talking about?

You're a bit like the Nazi's and the holocaust (it never happened) , why flee to Russia then and not the West ??

 

[carlzeiss]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28460625

 

[martyn20]

You're a bit like the Nazi's and the holocaust (it never happened) , why flee to Russia then and not the West ??

Wow!

 

[Czechmate]

Wow!

May be a bit strong but you know what I mean

 

[dingodan]

It would seem that the worse areas are those held by the rebels, they do not seem very interested in helping the civilian population, there is no water or medical care? The Ukrainian government is stuffed really they can't leave the rebels to take over as much of the land as they want but fighting back is causing civilian casualties. Is that about right?

Yes, it's worse in the rebel areas, because the Ukrainian military have a lot more power than the rebels.

The Air power and artillery of the Ukrainian Army is the reason conditions are bad, not because the rebels didn't pay the water bill.

More from the article, which you should probably read again.

"...But no government assistance was visible in Slavyansk or Svyatogorsk, where local civic organisations, businesses and private citizens have helped to provide transportation, housing and food for those trying to flee the violence."

"Newly elected president Petro Poroshenko has promised a humanitarian corridor in the east, though there has been no sign of this in practice yet."

 

[martyn20]

Yes, it's worse in the rebel areas, because the Ukrainian military have a lot more power than the rebels.

The Air power and artillery of the Ukrainian Army is the reason conditions are bad, not because the rebels didn't pay the water bill.

More from the article, which you should probably read again.

"...But no government assistance was visible in Slavyansk or Svyatogorsk, where local civic organisations, businesses and private citizens have helped to provide transportation, housing and food for those trying to flee the violence."

"Newly elected president Petro Poroshenko has promised a humanitarian corridor in the east, though there has been no sign of this in practice yet."

That's a bloody stupid comment, I expected more!

 

[peterward]

Ok that is your opinion and very pro Ukrainian but I respect your view , so what about the hundreds and hundreds of East Ukrainian civilians being killed with air strikes and rockets by the Kiev government , is this right ? what is your take on this ? 100,000's are being left homeless and scared and are not sure what the future would be under Kiev rule so fled to Russia (more I am sure would go but do not have any money ), is this not a kind of ethnic cleansing by the Ukraine army ? I am only trying to put a different slant on the situation and realise you are quite involved with Ukraine . This same situation is happening in Gaza although not nearly as severe as in the Ukraine but we never see any news on this .

I do not think at all the same is happening in Gaza. Gaza is about long held differences of opinion, palestinian rockets, Israel retaliating (and going way OTT), Israel think they have claim to the land, Palestine think they have claim to the land etc.

Ukraine is about a sovereign nation waging war on another sovereign nation with no territorial claims, because it doesnt like other nation exercising a political choice of its citizens, its not a civil war issue as in Gaza/Israel, its one country trying to destabilise and destroy another.

half of my family that are pro Russian Ukrainians and many friends who live in the region in Donetsk and Mariupol that are facing all these troubles and experience the daily reality that you read about. A taxi driver who is now virtually starving because drunk russian citizens with guns are blocking all roads, a father in law who's steel factory has been shut, due to threats from the russian citizens 'branded as seperatists in west' making threats against all businesses. Yes some have fled to relatives across the border, but there is also a lot of bullshite around mass exodus's, my family/friends are all there.

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/02/propaganda-fail-terrified-ukrainians-flee-to-russia-footage-shows-polish-border/comment-page-1/

I am not pro ukrainian per se, but pro family/friends and pro truth and there has been very little, almost no truth coming from the kremlin media since members of the public stood up to protest Yanukovych. Its been a litany of lies and misinformation, followed by a covert russian invasion and attack on a sovereign nation as Russia can not an will not allow Ukraine to choose a path other than remaining a weaker subservient puppet of the Kremlin.
If you chose to join France, does that give you the right to start planting bombs in churchill square or shooting people in western road, demanding that nobody works in Brighton without your say so, at least as an Englishman you may feel some perverse logic? What if the French Military covertly sent hundreds of highly skilled commandoes without insignias and hordes of non English speaking French citizens as "tourists" who blocked all roads with guns, looted shops, demanded monies from the sussex population, shut down factories, kidnapped, killed and terrorised the Sussex population, should the British armed forces refuse to act?

Because thats whats really happening, this isnt the local pro russian ukrainian citizens population (there are a few that joined but very few), its russians, from russia who dont speak a word of ukrainian. Just today on the BBC, the self proclaimed prime minister Boradai (as my wife says he has a very strong russian accent - she can tell if there ukrainians speaking russian or russians) he admitted he was not ukrainian or from donbass, he is a russian citizen from moscow who volunteered and hey ho "fate made me prime minister"!!! (his words)....nothing to do with engineering!

What you put forward innocently, i am sure is truly NOT the reality of what is happening on the ground, it is the type of myth perpetuated from the russian media......

This has nothing to do with the ukraine conflict as such but as background, and it is widely reported (if youre interested), Putin became PM in the late 90's under President Yeltsin when Russia had been beaten back into a stalemate in Chechnya, many russians came back in body bags, and their was no public stomach to go back in there, but they did go back in their in full force almost as soon as Putin became PM, with a scorched earth policy that killed 10'000's of chechens, reduced it to rubble and solidified new ruler Putins rule and popularity..... so what changed the publics mood to go back into chechnya?

2 apartment buildings were bombed in Moscow, with over 300 civilians dead and it was blamed on chechen militants, the outraged public bayed for blood and the new ex KGB PM went into chechnya in full force. The attacks were to russia what 9/11 is to the US, Google.... moscow apartment bombings by john dunlop, there are detailed accounts and documents of former KGB heads at the time, eye witnesses etc that all say it was orchestrated by the russian secret services on order of Putin to give the required pretext, and its engineering a pretext for further action (if none naturally exists) that is paramount in how Putin operates.

fyi - Two public enquiries have been attempted to expose it and each time all those involved have been mysteriously assassinated.

Now to answer your question, hundreds and hundreds of civilians are not being deliberately killed by the Ukraine army, they have refused to attack civilian areas, where russian terrorists are known to occupy a residential area, they have been given warning to evacuate....... And there is a lot of evidence, that the so called seperatists are firing on the civilian population to try and divide them off against the government and draw them into the conflict.... of course any attack on a civilian area, just like MH17 is blamed on kiev.... but there is photographic evidence of grad rockets being fired from russia into civilian areas? why? pretext to protect "russian speakers", blame kiev?

Kharkiv (even more pro russian), Dnipropetrovsk, Nikolaev right down to Odessa are all pro russian ukrainian areas where there is no fighting, no troubles and no insurgency Why? because there are no Russian troops, mercenaries and russian citizens their causing chaos to destabilise those regions and the local populations are not interested in this shit, they want peace. There were rallies and attempts to gain a foothold in those regions with 1000's bused in from russia (tourists) to pre planned pro russia rent-a-rallies, with hunreds of coaches with russian number plates parked up everywhere, but they never took off as their was no local populice desire for this. In Odessa in May there were pro russians in a building that caught fire with the loss of 31 lives when pro ukrainians turned up, russian media tried to blame fire on the ukrainian facists but multiple sources on both sides paint a different picture.

four people died after shots were fired by pro-Russians onto a peaceful demonstration for Ukrainian unity in the city centre. The pro-Ukrainian crowd, sought revenge by attacking the pro-Russian protest camp and without weapons a mini brawl ensued, in front of the trade union building. Pro-Russians then all ran into into that building. Some of them shot at the pro-Ukrainian crowd from inside and were throwing petrol bombs, then the building caught fire.

Who were the gunmen in the city centre on Friday afternoon? Were they among the people who later entered the building and were shooting from there? Where did the Molotov cocktails in trade union house come from? How did the fire start? Why did the pro-Russian crowd rush into a building instead of running away? Why could the 31 people not escape once the building caught fire?

over 20 witnesses claim they saw Alexy Albu, the pro-Russia leader, directing people into the building that he himself did not enter, but he denied it. he did though say the fire spread so quickly and killed so many because he believed it was pre-planned and doors were locked preventing escape.

Russian media had a field day, facists executing russian speakers, and this plays over all media into many homes in ukraine........ but ultimately Russia failed in its attempts to engineer civilian unrest in that city also.

Now if you know Ukraine, why is this so called insurgency only happening in one region - Donbass?

Simple, its the powerbase of all the deposed government now hiding in Russia, Yanukovych and all his former ministers are the Donetsk clan, his son a trained dentist became one its richest citizens. If you understand the level of corruption, its more akin to mafia family than functioning state, they controlled the mayors, police, local politicians, border guards, all organised crime in that area. They sit at the top of the Donbass crime network. They all did a bunk to Russia and were granted leave to remain...... why? why would Russia harbour those accused of murdering their own citizens. and Why is is it now that all the unrest with russian citizens, military and arms pouring over the border and local establishment complicity making it easier, just so happens to be in this area only and not one other pro russian area??

The price of one corrupt dictators freedom to allow another corrupt dictator to cause chaos for his own agenda at the expense of peaceful ukrainian citizens?

is that Rebels? or Seperatists? i can never quite tell!

 

[peterward]

It would seem that the worse areas are those held by the rebels, they do not seem very interested in helping the civilian population, there is no water or medical care? The Ukrainian government is stuffed really they can't leave the rebels to take over as much of the land as they want but fighting back is causing civilian casualties. Is that about right?

by the own admission they are a militia who can fight but not govern

 

[martyn20]

by the own admission they are a militia who can fight but not govern

So to say they are coming to the aid of the civilian population is not quite true then?

 

[dingodan]

That's a bloody stupid comment, I expected more!

Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[daveinprague]

So to say they are coming to the aid of the civilian population is not quite true then?

Militia tend to be local armed civilians. I dont think they travelled far.

 

[martyn20]

Militia tend to be local armed civilians. I dont think they travelled far.

Most of their leaders have come from Moscow! I would guess it's the same with many of the soldiers!