Malaysian airline crash

[dingodan]

You have had a very strong opinion on who didn't do it up until now?

Have I?

 

[martyn20]

Have I?

Yes

 

[dingodan]

Yes

Are you sure?

To say - It's not proven that the Rebels were responsible.

Is not the same as saying - The Rebels were not responsible.

 

[Czechmate]

i was referring to the reporting from those journalist that dingodan loves to keep citing, i don't see you claiming that "a source" in the US military has told you there's evidence it was the Ukrainians. But then dingodan would believe it if they said USS Eldridge popped up in the skies above Ukraine rammed the plane. or something.

Ok I see what you mean now , I misread it .

 

[Czechmate]

It would take many years for a massive switch like that and China does not look a very safe bet either right now. The Russian economy would be in tatters before they made new relationships to make up the difference.
We are talking about economic sanctions that will start to be felt hard within months, they cannot build a pipeline quick enough to get the oil and gas anywhere else fast enough.

As far as I know the Ukrainians still haven't paid for their gas which will run out in December and they will be in all sorts of problems , they have got to start talking soon to the Russians if they like it or not . The Americans can see an opening for gas /oil supply to Ukraine/Europe so hence all the propaganda but that is years off yet .

China will be massive within 20-30 years , perhaps the superpower . Already they are signing contracts with the South American countries probably to the US's disgust .

 

[peterward]

We just don't agree on what the word evidence means, I respect what you believe about what happened, and I don't think it's unreasonable. But we will never agree on what constitutes a fact.

It is a FACT that all of the military and political high command of the.insurgents/rebels/DNR or whatever else you want to call those causing terror in Ukraine are Russian citizens and actual serving Russian military, add in Russian mercenary groups from chechnya who have openly admitted as such and then you read the article again.

One of the Rebels/Russians/DNR has openly admitted they did have BUKs from Russia and that they were rushed back over the border as soon as mh17 was shot down.

Where did he say they got them from? Can you buy these in a local hardware store?

At a minimum, The Russian state has given it's Russian proxies terrorising Ukraine said missile system , they also allowed it back over the border hastily after mh17 was downed. Russia is involved in supplying and sponsoring terrorist operations in Ukraine.

A number of military experts have said that it's impossible to fire a BUK without expertise and satellite, it's a satellite guided missile that no local drunk member of dnr could operate without a lot of training. it's to high tech and in would need to work in tandem with a satellite system locking onto target.

The social media admissions, tapped phones, crash site obstruction and tampering, eye witnesses who saw buk.in rebel controlled area and who videoed it being taken back over Russian border, now DNR commander admits what was lied about, we had BUKs from Russia (impossible to operate without russian training) and we rushed them back to Russia.......

And yet still you try and argue it isn't real.... You're own prejudices are distorting any ability to look at facts objectively

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Probably not but of course if the EU, (or Russia), stopped imports of oil and gas into the EU the price of both on the world market would increase dramatically.

The opposite argument of course also applies - could Europe increase its oil and gas imports from other sources were 40% of its current oil supplies and 25% of its gas suddenly shut off?

Who would be hurt most economically - Russia or the EU?

Russia. Its economy would crumble.

That's not to say it wouldn't be painful for the EU, but not cataclysmic like it would be for russia.

Sanction Gazprom and this crisis will end.

 

[Czechmate]

It is a FACT that all of the military and political high command of the.insurgents/rebels/DNR or whatever else you want to call those causing terror in Ukraine are Russian citizens and actual serving Russian military, add in Russian mercenary groups from chechnya who have openly admitted as such and then you read the article again.

One of the Rebels/Russians/DNR has openly admitted they did have BUKs from Russia and that they were rushed back over the border as soon as mh17 was shot down.

Where did he say they got them from? Can you buy these in a local hardware store?

At a minimum, The Russian state has given it's Russian proxies terrorising Ukraine said missile system , they also allowed it back over the border hastily after mh17 was downed. Russia is involved in supplying and sponsoring terrorist operations in Ukraine.

A number of military experts have said that it's impossible to fire a BUK without expertise and satellite, it's a satellite guided missile that no local drunk member of dnr could operate without a lot of training. it's to high tech and in would need to work in tandem with a satellite system locking onto target.

The social media admissions, tapped phones, crash site obstruction and tampering, eye witnesses who saw buk.in rebel controlled area and who videoed it being taken back over Russian border, now DNR commander admits what was lied about, we had BUKs from Russia (impossible to operate without russian training) and we rushed them back to Russia.......

And yet still you try and argue it isn't real.... You're own prejudices are distorting any ability to look at facts objectively

Ok that is your opinion and very pro Ukrainian but I respect your view , so what about the hundreds and hundreds of East Ukrainian civilians being killed with air strikes and rockets by the Kiev government , is this right ? what is your take on this ? 100,000's are being left homeless and scared and are not sure what the future would be under Kiev rule so fled to Russia (more I am sure would go but do not have any money ), is this not a kind of ethnic cleansing by the Ukraine army ? I am only trying to put a different slant on the situation and realise you are quite involved with Ukraine . This same situation is happening in Gaza although not nearly as severe as in the Ukraine but we never see any news on this .

 

[martyn20]

Ok that is your opinion and very pro Ukrainian but I respect your view , so what about the hundreds and hundreds of East Ukrainian civilians being killed with air strikes and rockets by the Kiev government , is this right ? what is your take on this ? 100,000's are being left homeless and scared and are not sure what the future would be under Kiev rule so fled to Russia (more I am sure would go but do not have any money ), is this not a kind of ethnic cleansing by the Ukraine army ? I am only trying to put a different slant on the situation and realise you are quite involved with Ukraine . This same situation is happening in Gaza although not nearly as severe as in the Ukraine but we never see any news on this .

Can you help me build a picture by showing me some links or sources about the bombing of Ukrainians by the Ukrainian government and about Ukrainians fleeing across the border, where have these people gone inside Russia, are there refugee camps etc. I want to learn more about the people being forced out of Ukraine by their own government

 

[Creaky]

Russia. Its economy would crumble.

That's not to say it wouldn't be painful for the EU, but not cataclysmic like it would be for russia.

Sanction Gazprom and this crisis will end.

Even if you are right I don't expect to see Germany taking steps that will lead to its economy suffering to the extent it would if oil and gas imports from Russia were stopped.

The vast majority of Russian exports are raw materials - oil, gas, metals and minerals, very little in terms of manufactured goods with the possible exception of arms and military aircraft.

What Russia has the world needs and whilst there is no doubt its economy would suffer under harsher sanctions in the short term, in the long term it is holding the winning hand.

An even more important question of course is whether or not sanctions would achieve their aim - certainly they could depress the Russian economy, possibly even be catastrophic as you suggest but would they achieve their aims - under such circumstances would Putin be more or less likely refrain from actions such as those taken in Crimea?

Much depends on the motives behind such actions - if Putin's main aim is to improve the Russian economy then sanctions might work but if they are, as they appear to be, to secure its borders and guarantee Russia's security and survival then they will have no effect.

 

[dingodan]

It is a FACT that all of the military and political high command of the.insurgents/rebels/DNR or whatever else you want to call those causing terror in Ukraine are Russian citizens and actual serving Russian military, add in Russian mercenary groups from chechnya who have openly admitted as such and then you read the article again.

One of the Rebels/Russians/DNR has openly admitted they did have BUKs from Russia and that they were rushed back over the border as soon as mh17 was shot down.

Where did he say they got them from? Can you buy these in a local hardware store?

At a minimum, The Russian state has given it's Russian proxies terrorising Ukraine said missile system , they also allowed it back over the border hastily after mh17 was downed. Russia is involved in supplying and sponsoring terrorist operations in Ukraine.

A number of military experts have said that it's impossible to fire a BUK without expertise and satellite, it's a satellite guided missile that no local drunk member of dnr could operate without a lot of training. it's to high tech and in would need to work in tandem with a satellite system locking onto target.

The social media admissions, tapped phones, crash site obstruction and tampering, eye witnesses who saw buk.in rebel controlled area and who videoed it being taken back over Russian border, now DNR commander admits what was lied about, we had BUKs from Russia (impossible to operate without russian training) and we rushed them back to Russia.......

And yet still you try and argue it isn't real.... You're own prejudices are distorting any ability to look at facts objectively

I've written posts like that before. About conspiracy theories which I couldn't prove as true, but still asserted as fact.

It is a FACT that all

Can it realistically be that there is not one single Ukrainian fighting against the Ukrainian Army in East Ukraine?

You're own prejudices are distorting any ability to look at facts objectively

This.

 

[Danny-Boy]

The real headache is that there significan Russian minorities in many other of the countries which "span off" the old USSR and presumably Putin would like to reabsorb into "Greater Russia". And unlike Ukraine, many if not all of these are now in NATO.
There are no doubt many unrepentant Communists in these countries who could act as a "Fifth Column" in the event that relations with Russia deteriorated to an armed confrontation. Certainly in East Germany many regret the old solidarity and the sheltered economy and guaranteed jobs of the "old days". Some towns in East Germany have lost most of their youth who have all headed west to get jobs in the new economy since 1990.

 

[martyn20]

The real headache is that there significan Russian minorities in many other of the countries which "span off" the old USSR and presumably Putin would like to reabsorb into "Greater Russia". And unlike Ukraine, many if not all of these are now in NATO.
There are no doubt many unrepentant Communists in these countries who could act as a "Fifth Column" in the event that relations with Russia deteriorated to an armed confrontation. Certainly in East Germany many regret the old solidarity and the sheltered economy and guaranteed jobs of the "old days". Some towns in East Germany have lost most of their youth who have all headed west to get jobs in the new economy since 1990.

Many people in East Germany want a return to old days of Communism?

 

[Czechmate]

Many people in East Germany want a return to old days of Communism?

It wasn't all bad , I can only speak for the Czech people but I think it is pretty similar , they were given apartments (may be small) on the outskirts of town , trams were built to bring these people into the centre to work and still very cheap and the social life is amazing , there are many bars and restaurants in Brno where I lived for 2 years and unlike in the UK are packed most evenings as this was the social part of communism and still now the prices for food drink and fags are as cheap as anything s this is the social event for most workers and the government respects that . I even think they were given a free holiday trip in the old days .

 

[Creaky]

http://www.spiegel.de/international...eel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html

 

[martyn20]

http://www.spiegel.de/international...eel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html

And how are things currently?

 

[Czechmate]

Can you help me build a picture by showing me some links or sources about the bombing of Ukrainians by the Ukrainian government and about Ukrainians fleeing across the border, where have these people gone inside Russia, are there refugee camps etc. I want to learn more about the people being forced out of Ukraine by their own government

I don't do links , besides not sure how to do them it was reported by the UN , and believe it or not I have seen the reports on CNN , the odd time on BBC 24 hour and may be you should look at France 24 hour , Al Jazzeer , Euronews , don't worry I only take RT with a pinch of salt . As I said you keep looking at mainstream news you may miss it as not reported.

 

[Creaky]

And how are things currently?

Come on! - that report was only 5 years ago!

 

[martyn20]

I don't just look at maintsream media, but if you have nothing to back up what you are saying it's hard to take it on face value. Guess I will have to do the research myself and build my own picture?

 

[martyn20]

Come on! - that report was only 5 years ago!

And the situation was about the same for young, old and middle aged people in countries across the world in 2009 if you remember what was going on. Things have changed, something slightly more up to date would be better. Things in Ukraine were very different 5 years ago