Malaysian airline crash

[dingodan]

There is another thread to discuss that, it's not relevant to this discussion

Would it be relevant if the answer was Russia?

 

[sparkie]

Lot of talk tonight about a full scale russian invasion in the next day or so

If so I hope Russia is sanctioned back to the stoneage.

 

[martyn20]

Would it be relevant if the answer was Russia?

If it was regarding the shooting down of MH17

 

[martyn20]

Lot of talk tonight about a full scale russian invasion in the next day or so

If so I hope Russia is sanctioned back to the stoneage.

If they do it will change their international standing for decades to come at the least and endanger the lives of all us at worst!

 

[Leighgull]

Lot of talk tonight about a full scale russian invasion in the next day or so

If so I hope Russia is sanctioned back to the stoneage.

That would be very foolhardy. Mind you Germany sell them too many BMWs and France too many bottles of wine for them to lift a finger to help Ukraine.

 

[martyn20]

Lot of talk tonight about a full scale russian invasion in the next day or so

If so I hope Russia is sanctioned back to the stoneage.

Can you point us in the direction where you saw this?

 

[sparkie]

Can you point us in the direction where you saw this?

I should clarify that this is just supposition at this stage. It seems that russian delegates are being recalled for an emergency meeting of their Duma. Russian soldiers posting on VK their goodbyes as they are being sent into Ukraine.

It may still be brinkmanship from putin, or he may be planning an illegitimate, unauthorised 'UN Peacekeeping' deployment.

Or it may be that the final decision is still to be taken. We'll know in the next day or so, no way of telling until it or if it actually happens.

 

[peterward]

I should clarify that this is just supposition at this stage. It seems that russian delegates are being recalled for an emergency meeting of their Duma. Russian soldiers posting on VK their goodbyes as they are being sent into Ukraine.

It may still be brinkmanship from putin, or he may be planning an illegitimate, unauthorised 'UN Peacekeeping' deployment.

Or it may be that the final decision is still to be taken. We'll know in the next day or so, no way of telling until it or if it actually happens.

There was talk ten days or so ago, an invasion was planned, there were russian military vehicles on the russian side of border photgraphed with "russian peacekeepers" on them......could be brinkmanship, could be Putin thinks he can get away with anything as the west wont act, and Ukraine, pivotal to his soviet union pt 2 eurasion union, is worth the all in move..... it will be very hard for the west to change the reality on the ground for all their bleeting.

 

[peterward]

The thing about the position a lot of you are taking is that you are all working to a kind of certainty. You don't say Russia may have been involved, you say Russia was involved.

you're damn right i do, i've got family in Donetsk, this is all Russian led......... this is from this evening dingodan, do please try and explain it away?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723

(Reuters) - A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and it could have originated in Russia.

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.

Since the airliner crashed with the loss of all 298 on board, the most contentious issue has been who fired the missile that brought the jet down in an area where government forces are fighting pro-Russian rebels.

Khodakovsky blamed the Kiev authorities for provoking what may have been the missile strike that destroyed the doomed airliner, saying Kiev had deliberately launched air strikes in the area, knowing the missiles were in place.

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.

 

[Creaky]

So NATO signing up new members in Europe makes it ok for Russia to ignore borders and kill people on other countries soil. Or did I miss the civil war in which NATO supplied SAM's and other arms so a country would sign up? Pretty sure it's democratic governments who have sought membership, the legal way and all that.
My point about making sure it does not happen again was referring to Russia supplying arms and soldiers to other countries and them being used incorrectly leading to massive loss of innocent life!

I never said it was OK! What I did say was that Russia is likely to continue 'interfering' in its neighbours disputes all the time NATO expands eastwards.

Legality is apparently whatever the West says it is when discussing conflicts - see Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Columbia, El Salvador, Iran, Israel etc. etc.

Those countries adjacent to Russia which are now members of NATO do have US weapons, aircraft and bases on their soil - hardly surprising that Russia is 'nervous' about this. The expansion of NATO does nothing to ensure the peace and security of the original members, quite the contrary - it makes it far more likely that they will be drawn into military disputes whilst at the same time raising tensions in the East.

Economic expansion by way of trade and the free movement of people helps develop the economies of these states far more than NATO ever will - the West European countries don't seem quite so keen on this solution though because it will initially have a detrimental effect on their own economies.

Rather than encouraging Russia by way of increasing trade and reducing military tensions the West appears to be keen on doing the exact opposite. The more the Russian's economy is strangled the more it will look for ways to expand, the more they are threatened militarily the more the people of Russia will support the likes of Putin in his expansionist policies.

 

[martyn20]

I never said it was OK! What I did say was that Russia is likely to continue 'interfering' in its neighbours disputes all the time NATO expands eastwards.

Legality is apparently whatever the West says it is when discussing conflicts - see Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Columbia, El Salvador, Iran, Israel etc. etc.

Those countries adjacent to Russia which are now members of NATO do have US weapons, aircraft and bases on their soil - hardly surprising that Russia is 'nervous' about this. The expansion of NATO does nothing to ensure the peace and security of the original members, quite the contrary - it makes it far more likely that they will be drawn into military disputes whilst at the same time raising tensions in the East.

Economic expansion by way of trade and the free movement of people helps develop the economies of these states far more than NATO ever will - the West European countries don't seem quite so keen on this solution though because it will initially have a detrimental effect on their own economies.

Rather than encouraging Russia by way of increasing trade and reducing military tensions the West appears to be keen on doing the exact opposite. The more the Russian's economy is strangled the more it will look for ways to expand, the more they are threatened militarily the more the people of Russia will support the likes of Putin in his expansionist policies.

Thank you Mr Putin!

 

[Creaky]

Thank you Mr Putin!

And that's your answer!

I've yet to see a practical solution to the problems in the Ukraine - it seems that most are far more interested in laying blame for the actions that had such tragic consequences for nearly 300 innocents. Whether the rebels admit their responsibility or the blame is laid at the doors of the Russians or Ukrainians will not make one jot of difference to those who died.

 

[martyn20]

And that's your answer!

I've yet to see a practical solution to the problems in the Ukraine - it seems that most are far more interested in laying blame for the actions that had such tragic consequences for nearly 300 innocents. Whether the rebels admit their responsibility or the blame is laid at the doors of the Russians or Ukrainians will not make one jot of difference to those who died.

The way to go forward is for Russia to stop getting involved in the politics of other countries. The majority of people in the area of the old Soviet Union do not want to go back to those days and are happy with their new countries, Putin needs to understand this and start acting accordingly.
NATO is not interested in starting a war or another cold war with Russia and Putin's paranoia does not justify this kind of action.
Nothing will bring back all those men, women and children but their deaths have to make a difference to what's going on.

 

[Creaky]

The way to go forward is for Russia to stop getting involved in the politics of other countries. The majority of people in the area of the old Soviet Union do not want to go back to those days and are happy with their new countries, Putin needs to understand this and start acting accordingly.
NATO is not interested in starting a war or another cold war with Russia and Putin's paranoia does not justify this kind of action.
Nothing will bring back all those men, women and children but their deaths have to make a difference to what's going on.

Of course the way forward is as you suggest but unless you are expecting Putin to have a St. Paul type conversion it's not going to happen.

So what is your suggestion as to how this can be accomplished - I've given you mine.

 

[martyn20]

Relative of MH17 victim Cameron Dalziel says their family had to cancel his credit cards because they are being used in Ukraine.

From @khinman on twitter

 

[smudge]

From @khinman on twitter

That is truly shocking.

 

[martyn20]

Of course the way forward is as you suggest but unless you are expecting Putin to have a St. Paul type conversion it's not going to happen.

So what is your suggestion as to how this can be accomplished - I've given you mine.

It's very difficult, Putin has to realise the right way, we have to educate and convince him, sanctions of all kinds are about the only way but if he is willing to go ahead with a full scale invasion of Ukraine it's very hard to see what we can do.
We certainly can't just do everything he demands, no way of knowing where that will land us. He says no NATO here, here and here and next he will want something even bigger

 

[Creaky]

It's very difficult, Putin has to realise the right way, we have to educate and convince him, sanctions of all kinds are about the only way but if he is willing to go ahead with a full scale invasion of Ukraine it's very hard to see what we can do.
We certainly can't just do everything he demands, no way of knowing where that will land us. He says no NATO here, here and here and next he will want something even bigger

How will sanctions work - the more you weaken the Russian economy the greater the incentive to look to new acquisitions.

In any case real sanctions can't be applied by Europe - we are far too dependent on Russian oil and gas.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jul/22/economic-meltdown-scenario-piles-pressure-on-russia

 

[martyn20]

How will sanctions work - the more you weaken the Russian economy the greater the incentive to look to new acquisitions.

In any case real sanctions can't be applied by Europe - we are far too dependent on Russian oil and gas.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jul/22/economic-meltdown-scenario-piles-pressure-on-russia

It's a balancing act, I don't know the ratio of sanctions causing damage to Russia compared with the damage it would do to us/EU. They are very dependent on the oil and gas sales so there is a point it can hurt them. There are financial sanctions which London can have a central part in upholding, both to Russian government, Russian private sector and certain Russians personally.
Russia is not a particularly strong or stable economy and a small nudge could be enough to effect Putin's future plans.

 

[Creaky]

It's a balancing act, I don't know the ratio of sanctions causing damage to Russia compared with the damage it would do to us/EU. They are very dependent on the oil and gas sales so there is a point it can hurt them. There are financial sanctions which London can have a central part in upholding, both to Russian government, Russian private sector and certain Russians personally.
Russia is not a particularly strong or stable economy and a small nudge could be enough to effect Putin's future plans.

What sanctions will likely achieve is even greater trade cooperation between Russia and China - is it really in the West's best interest to drive Russia into looking South towards China and India for its major economic relationships.