Malaysian airline crash

[dingodan]

The rabbit-hole of going round in circles with you. It's been presented to you countless times already and time and time again you've rebuffed it for spurious reasons. Your flimsy evidence that you give the benefit of the doubt to - likewise. The dubious people? Do you really need all this spelled out*?

*I don't know if you even care about the truth. It's all about building a huge conspiracy.

You said that it's proven that Russia was involved in the shooting down of MH17, and it isn't true. You might not like it, but it's not true. So you are wrong. Or lying, but let's just say wrong.

You also implied that I am allowing "dubious people" to influence me. Have I been quoting the Rebels? Or Moscow? Not exactly. I don't like how disingenuous you are sometimes.

Robert Parry (born June 24, 1949) is an American investigative journalist best known for his role in covering the Iran-Contra affair for the Associated Press and Newsweek, including breaking the Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare (CIA manual provided to the Nicaraguan contras) and the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal in 1985. He was awarded the George Polk Award for National Reporting in 1984. He has been the editor of ConsortiumNews.com since 1995.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

Raymond McGovern (born August 25, 1939) is a retired CIA officer turned political activist. McGovern was a CIA analyst from 1963 to 1990, and in the 1980s chaired National Intelligence Estimates and prepared the President's Daily Brief. He received the Intelligence Commendation Medal at his retirement, returning it in 2006 in protest at the CIA's involvement in torture.[1] McGovern's post-retirement work includes commentating on intelligence issues and in 2003 co-founding Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_McGovern

John Richard Pilger (born 9 October 1939)[1][2] is an Australian-British[3] journalist based in London.[4] Pilger has lived in the United Kingdom since 1962.[5][6]
Since his early years as correspondent in the Vietnam War, Pilger has been a strong critic of American and British foreign policy, which he considers to be driven by an imperialist agenda. The practices of the mainstream media have also been a theme in his work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pilger

Harold Pinter, CH, CBE (10 October 1930 – 24 December 2008) was a Nobel Prize-winning English playwright, screenwriter, director and actor. One of the most influential modern British dramatists, his writing career spanned more than 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Pinter

If you look closely at what I say, I do not speak in defense of Russia, I only speak in defense of the truth. Period.

 

[applecrumble]

Hopefully making sure this type of incident cannot happen again and making sure Russia leaves neighbouring countries to decide on their own futures

I think the Plane attack is as much a statement as it is a mistake.

Why the hell was the passenger plane flying over a war Zone anyway?

I'd expect a much cheaper plane ticket if I'd known the airliner was going to risk the plane and it's passengers to save petrol? No other passenger plane flew that route?

 

[Leighgull]

You said that it's proven that Russia was involved in the shooting down of MH17, and it isn't true. You might not like it, but it's not true. So you are wrong. Or lying, but let's just say wrong.

You also implied that I am allowing "dubious people" to influence me. Have I been quoting the Rebels? Or Moscow? Not exactly. I don't like how disingenuous you are sometimes.

Robert Parry (born June 24, 1949) is an American investigative journalist best known for his role in covering the Iran-Contra affair for the Associated Press and Newsweek, including breaking the Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare (CIA manual provided to the Nicaraguan contras) and the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal in 1985. He was awarded the George Polk Award for National Reporting in 1984. He has been the editor of ConsortiumNews.com since 1995.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

Raymond McGovern (born August 25, 1939) is a retired CIA officer turned political activist. McGovern was a CIA analyst from 1963 to 1990, and in the 1980s chaired National Intelligence Estimates and prepared the President's Daily Brief. He received the Intelligence Commendation Medal at his retirement, returning it in 2006 in protest at the CIA's involvement in torture.[1] McGovern's post-retirement work includes commentating on intelligence issues and in 2003 co-founding Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_McGovern

John Richard Pilger (born 9 October 1939)[1][2] is an Australian-British[3] journalist based in London.[4] Pilger has lived in the United Kingdom since 1962.[5][6]
Since his early years as correspondent in the Vietnam War, Pilger has been a strong critic of American and British foreign policy, which he considers to be driven by an imperialist agenda. The practices of the mainstream media have also been a theme in his work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pilger

Harold Pinter, CH, CBE (10 October 1930 – 24 December 2008) was a Nobel Prize-winning English playwright, screenwriter, director and actor. One of the most influential modern British dramatists, his writing career spanned more than 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Pinter

If you look closely at what I say, I do not speak in defense of Russia, I only speak in defense of the truth. Period.

What "truth"? You have pointed out that no one has definitively proved who fired the fatal missile and then made a mental leap from that "truth" to a wild speculation about pissed up Ukrainian soldiers shooting down a civilian aircraft packed with Dutch holidaymakers and AIDS researchers in attempt, drunkenly, to force NATO to intervene on their side.

I suggest you go for a lie down fella.

 

[martyn20]

I think the Plane attack is as much a statement as it is a mistake.

Why the hell was the passenger plane flying over a war Zone anyway?

I'd expect a much cheaper plane ticket if I'd known the airliner was going to risk the plane and it's passengers to save petrol? No other passenger plane flew that route?

Plenty of other passenger planes had been flying over that area, only US carriers and BA were avoiding it, hundreds of planes since the violence started. That's the truth but you are right they should not have been there, bad advice and financial issues.
I know it's a very long thread but this has already been covered in depth if you check back

 

[Leighgull]

I think the Plane attack is as much a statement as it is a mistake.

Why the hell was the passenger plane flying over a war Zone anyway?

I'd expect a much cheaper plane ticket if I'd known the airliner was going to risk the plane and it's passengers to save petrol? No other passenger plane flew that route?

Not true. There was a Singapore airliner and a Quantas 747 in the same airspace at the same time. The Ukraine govt. had said it was safe at 32k feet.

 

[martyn20]

Not true. There was a Singapore airliner and a Quantas 747 in the same airspace at the same time. The Ukraine govt. had said it was safe at 32k feet.

But some airlines still did not think it safe after that advice. They were proved right of course sadly

 

[Buzzer]

I didn't say it was proven, so you might want to stop with the passive aggressive insults.

I said there was overwhelming evidence. There's a subtle but hugely significant difference. The Twitter feed alone blows all your 'plausible alternatives' out the water.

And I've already shown you that Pilger has an agenda and cannot be considered independent. I also showed that your attempts to bring Ukrainian anti-semitism into the debate was without merit. I think I've shown previously on this thread that I can back up what I've said with credible evidence. I just can't be arsed to do this any further.

No doubt you'll be on this thread for another 20 pages arguing that nice guy Putin is being hard done by, by a ruthless US-backed media but I'm done here.

Last word: I simply don't believe you that you seek the truth. I think you want a conspiracy, preferably discrediting the USA.

 

[Creaky]

Hopefully making sure this type of incident cannot happen again and making sure Russia leaves neighbouring countries to decide on their own futures

Unfortunately civilian planes being shot down in error has happened before and no doubt will happen again at some time in the future.

As for Russia leaving its neighbours to sort out their own conflicts that is I think a forlorn hope all the time NATO advances eastwards.

How do you suggest that we, the US or anyone else could 'make sure' of either? - I'm not sure that sabre rattling or economic threats are the way to go.

 

[dingodan]

The thing about the position a lot of you are taking is that you are all working to a kind of certainty. You don't say Russia may have been involved, you say Russia was involved.

The skeptical position I take is perfectly legitimate, but more than that - the position I take allows for the Rebels to be found to have brought down the plane. If it ends up being proven that that was the case, then my position, not withstanding everything I have said, still allows for the truth to be whatever it proves to be in the end. Your position is different, it is intractable.

That should give you a hint as to who is looking at this objectively.

 

[Creaky]

Last word: I simply don't believe you that you seek the truth. I think you want a conspiracy, preferably discrediting the USA.

I hardly think you need a conspiracy theory to discredit the USA!

 

[Leighgull]

But some airlines still did not think it safe after that advice. They were proved right of course sadly

Clearly.

 

[martyn20]

Unfortunately civilian planes being shot down in error has happened before and no doubt will happen again at some time in the future.

As for Russia leaving its neighbours to sort out their own conflicts that is I think a forlorn hope all the time NATO advances eastwards.

How do you suggest that we, the US or anyone else could 'make sure' of either? - I'm not sure that sabre rattling or economic threats are the way to go.

So NATO signing up new members in Europe makes it ok for Russia to ignore borders and kill people on other countries soil. Or did I miss the civil war in which NATO supplied SAM's and other arms so a country would sign up? Pretty sure it's democratic governments who have sought membership, the legal way and all that.
My point about making sure it does not happen again was referring to Russia supplying arms and soldiers to other countries and them being used incorrectly leading to massive loss of innocent life!

 

[dingodan]

What "truth"? You have pointed out that no one has definitively proved who fired the fatal missile.

Yes, that truth.

 

[applecrumble]

My point about making sure it does not happen again was referring to Russia supplying arms and soldiers to other countries and them being used incorrectly leading to massive loss of innocent life!

I'm sure the Palestinians would agree.

Who supplies Israel with it's weaponry?

 

[martyn20]

I'm sure the Palestinians would agree.

Who supplies Israel with it's weaponry?

That's does not even make sense and anyway does not have a place in this thread

 

[applecrumble]

That's does not even make sense and anyway does not have a place in this thread

You said:
My point about making sure it does not happen again was referring to Russia supplying arms and soldiers to other countries and them being used incorrectly leading to massive loss of innocent life!

Israel does have relevance to your concerns.

Not to mention Iran.

 

[martyn20]

You said you want the outcome of this attack to prevent a strong country like Russia supplying arms and soldiers to other countries and them being used incorrectly leading to massive loss of innocent life?

Israel does have relevance to your concerns.

Who are Israel supplying arms and troops to right now, which other countries civil war?

 

[applecrumble]

Who are Israel supplying arms and troops to right now, which other countries civil war?

Who is supplying Israel with it's arms?

 

[dingodan]

I'm sure the Palestinians would agree.

Who supplies Israel with it's weaponry?

To be fair, they are using it as intended.

 

[martyn20]

Who is supplying Israel with it's arms?

There is another thread to discuss that, it's not relevant to this discussion