Madeira Drive - Cost of Parking

[Barrel of Fun]

Seeing the thousands of visitors streaming into Brighton on a sunny day to go and sit on the beach, I appreciate that many will spend money in the city, however many won't. Yet presumably there's a massive cost involved in clearing up the beach/streets afterwards. Who pays this?

I had a great summer as a beach cleaner during my uni days. I got the best shift which involved walking all the way to Hove lagoon from the Palace Pier, picking up litter and emptying bins on the way. It was the best shift as I had almost five hours to kill by the lagoon, before walking back. I read a lot of books that summer. I guess the council paid me, indirectly, but an agency had their name on my payslips.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Anything that reduces traffic congestion in the city centre makes Brighton a more attractive place to visit. The excellent PlusBus ticket - available from any station in the country - that encourages visitors to arrive by train and get access to the whole of the local bus network (Brighton, Lewes, Newhaven, Seaford, Hove, Shoreham and Steyning) for just £2 a day (£1.35 for railcard holders / £1 for children) is doing the business. Better bus services will enhance the product.

To your previous post - Shelters etc in Coldean, Bevendean help tourists in what way? Not exactly on the 'must do' list in Brighton are they. Or the Gyratory?

As for the 2 pound deal, is that a single or return? I ask this as an A -board outside Brighton station seemed to offer a 2 pound all day ticket within the B&H area, whereas locals pay 4 quid?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

To your previous post - Shelters etc in Coldean, Bevendean help tourists in what way? Not exactly on the 'must do' list in Brighton are they. Or the Gyratory?

As for the 2 pound deal, is that a single or return? I ask this as an A -board outside Brighton station seemed to offer a 2 pound all day ticket within the B&H area, whereas locals pay 4 quid?

Coldean, Moulsecoomb and Bevendean have fewer stops with shelters than most other parts of Brighton and the Vogue Gyratory is dangerous for cyclists, pedestrians and general traffic. Transport improvements aren't just about visitors.

As for bus tickets ... there are no such things as return tickets in the Brighton and Hove city area. You can buy a single (flat fare) ticket or, for shorter journeys, a short-hop ticket, and then there are the all-day-as-many-buses-as-you-want CitySAVER, SAVER tickets or Centrefare tickets.

 

[Garage_Doors]

Coldean, Moulsecoomb and Bevendean have fewer stops with shelters than most other parts of Brighton and the Vogue Gyratory is dangerous for cyclists, pedestrians and general traffic. Transport improvements aren't just about visitors.

As for bus tickets ... there are no such things as return tickets in the Brighton and Hove city area. You can buy a single (flat fare) ticket or, for shorter journeys, a short-hop ticket, and then there are the all-day-as-many-buses-as-you-want CitySAVER, SAVER tickets or Centrefare tickets.

Not sure if you aspire to be a politician LB but you keep evading a direct question by giving deflection answers.
£2 for tourist at the station but residents have to pay £4 local to journey start. Weather you want to call it a flat fare, city saver, single,short-hop,all-day-as-many-buses-as-you-want or any other term they want to add to sell them. Not right is it?

 

[KNC]

Yep. I went to a meeting at the Amex on Monday, where the Council unveiled plans for a vastly improved bus service along the Lewes Road. Increased capacity on the 25s, new services direct to Brighton Station, new buses, more frequent services, many new bus shelters in Coldean, Moulsecoomb and Bevendean, bus lanes in both directions to speed up journey times, real time information signs at more bus stops, re-design of traffic signals and junctions (including the Vogue Gyratory), wider cycle lanes, new off-road cycle routes, better pedestrian

They've started work already, but it will be two years before the project is finished.

New buses? Surely that's a decision by the Go Ahead group, not the council. B&H buses have been regularly introducing new buses whoever ran the council.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Not sure if you aspire to be a politician LB but you keep evading a direct question by giving deflection answers.
£2 for tourist at the station but residents have to pay £4. Weather you want to call it a flat fare, city saver, single,short-hop,all-day-as-many-buses-as-you-want or any other term they want to add to sell them. Not right is it?

I certainly don't aspire to be the sort of politician that always argues that the market place should rule. But, in this case, the market place DOES rule. Prices are set by the supplier, not by the council, the government or anyone other than the seller of the tickets. "Right" doesn't enter into it. The commercial judgement of the bus company is the determining factor. I presume they set the fares as they do, because the fares that they set suit them.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Oh good - the Go-Ahead Group get to make yet more profit from public money.

Out of interest have you ever voted Tory?

 

[drew]

Anything that reduces traffic congestion in the city centre makes Brighton a more attractive place to visit. The excellent PlusBus ticket - available from any station in the country - that encourages visitors to arrive by train and get access to the whole of the local bus network (Brighton, Lewes, Newhaven, Seaford, Hove, Shoreham and Steyning) for just £2 a day (£1.35 for railcard holders / £1 for children) is doing the business. Better bus services will enhance the product.

Of course it would be more attractive, no traffic and no tourists.

And the appalling cost of traffic congestion (which affects loads of businesses) is reduced. "Public Spending Delivers Benefits Scandal". Shocking.

Out of interest, what studies show that with no traffic, local businesses thrive. Seems to me that the traffic brings in the customers. If they are coming by train or bus then if they do buy things, it isn't going to be much as you have to carry it all on the public transport.

Seeing the thousands of visitors streaming into Brighton on a sunny day to go and sit on the beach, I appreciate that many will spend money in the city, however many won't. Yet presumably there's a massive cost involved in clearing up the beach/streets afterwards. Who pays this?

Sorry, but I am assuming you are just guessing that many people spend all day on the beach with the picnic they brought with them, never spending money on the pier, crazy golf, volks railway, the lanes, ice creams etc etc. Personally, I don't know anyone that goes to a seaside resort and just stays on the beach for the whole day. You obviously know different. At the end of the day, Brighton would be dead without tourism.


Personally, I will no longer come to Brighton to go shopping, whether that be at Xmas or any other time of the year. I will not be going to the Marina even though the parking is free as the only reason would be for the cinema and bowling, both of which are better, unfortunately, in Crawley. Today, I took my wife and daughter to go on the wheel. We went to park in Madeira Drive and were pleasantly surprised to find a space. Became obvious why when we got to the meter. We left and parked free at the Marina and got a family return for £6.90 on the Volks railway. How long before that becomes too busy. If we go to the beach, it is likely to be Eastbourne or Littlehampton. Not ideal but then not a rip-off. Public transport has a place but when you have kids and all the paraphenalia that entails, no way am I carrying that all on the train.

Seems that from now on, my only trips to the area will be to the Amex.

 

[TotallyFreaked]

The Greens are far from perfect but I think that congestion is Brighton has been a nightmare for years especially in the summer months and making it more inconvenient and costly will hopefully force people to use alternative forms of sustainable transport. I don't believe it will impact on tourism in Brighton just as the congestion charge has not hit London tourism although we need to improve massively our park and ride schemes and make sure public transport is reliable and cost effective. Over the last couple of months with all the road works around Viaduct/Ditchling road and the old Shoreham road I have thought twice about using my car for those short trips around town and now will walk/bus/cycle where possible. It's a big pain but I think it's a reality that we all start to think hard about the way we use our cars.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Out of interest, what studies show that with no traffic, local businesses thrive. Seems to me that the traffic brings in the customers. If they are coming by train or bus then if they do buy things, it isn't going to be much as you have to carry it all on the public transport.

economic benefits of pedestrianisation - Google Scholar

Or you could try this one, about Taunton:-

http://www.somerset.gov.uk/irj/go/km/docs/CouncilDocuments/SCC/Documents/Environment/Strategic%20Planning/TTPP/TTC%20PIP%20Issues%20and%20Options%20Report%20(RB)%20v0.1.pdf

The improved environment produced by a reduction in traffic is asserted to induce shoppers to spend more, creating an economic benefit. If this benefit outweighs the costs of pedestrianisation and the associated rerouting of traffic it can be viewed as economically efficient.

Obviously, however, shoppers still need to be able access the area in question for these benefits to be realised and significant concerns exist that pedestrianisation can prevent them from doing this. However, theory suggests a number of factors act to prevent this from happening:

1. A significant proportion of traffic will simply be passing though, making no contribution to the local economy (whilst still imposing a cost on it).
2. Motorists visiting shops are likely to continue to drive for the majority of their journey. Modal shift is only likely in the final stages of the journey, e.g. to park and ride (Parkhurst, 2003 and TTR, 2002).
3. The importance of car travel in accessing retail areas is often overestimated.

In summary, it is clear that pedestrianisation can make a valuable contribution to the economy that outweighs any negative effects it may have.

...

Summary of case study results

The studies summarised assert that pedestrianisation can give rise to significant economic benefits, if properly implemented. Furthermore it is apparent that the impact on shoppers’ travel habits tends to be minimal and the benefits accrued are potentially significant in relation to the associated costs.

This suggests that the theories introduced above tend to be realised relatively successfully and that pedestrianisation is compatible with economic growth in practice also.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

New buses? Surely that's a decision by the Go Ahead group, not the council. B&H buses have been regularly introducing new buses whoever ran the council.

The Lewes Road package includes financial contributions from central government, the City Council, B&H Buses, Southern Rail, the Universities and a number of other organisations.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

The Lewes Road package includes financial contributions from central government, the City Council, B&H Buses, Southern Rail, the Universities and a number of other organisations.

Oxford is an excellent example of cars being banned from the centre, a lack of multi-storey parking blighting the landscape and super value P&R schemes in place. Why doesn't Brighton have that?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Oxford is an excellent example of cars being banned from the centre, a lack of multi-storey parking blighting the landscape and super value P&R schemes in place. Why doesn't Brighton have that?

Essentially because it's been impossible to identify the park and ride sites that everyone was prepared to support. I commissioned one of the first studies that tried to find suitable sites. It failed. As have all the subsequent attempts.

Falmer, next to Brighton University, was one option that was considered. Imagine the consequences of that idea being successful.

 

[Gwylan]

Oxford is an excellent example of cars being banned from the centre, a lack of multi-storey parking blighting the landscape and super value P&R schemes in place. Why doesn't Brighton have that?

Not just Oxford. There are several places that put severe restrictions on cars: York and Canterbury do too. And Durham had a congestion charge before London.

The idea that this is some sort of mad Green policy is fanciful - it's not Greens running these other local authorities.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Essentially because it's been impossible to identify the park and ride sites that everyone was prepared to support. I commissioned one of the first studies that tried to find suitable sites. It failed. As have all the subsequent attempts.

Falmer, next to Brighton University, was one option that was considered. Imagine the consequences of that idea being successful.

A real shame these fail. If cars are passing, say Shoreham, what are the objections of cars stopping there and buses carrying on? I'd like to see some iron fisted action and people being told there will be a P&R site nearby.

Not just Oxford. There are several places that put severe restrictions on cars: York and Canterbury do too. And Durham had a congestion charge before London.

The idea that this is some sort of mad Green policy is fanciful - it's not Greens running these other local authorities.

True, true.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

A real shame these fail. If cars are passing, say Shoreham, what are the objections of cars stopping there and buses carrying on? I'd like to see some iron fisted action and people being told there will be a P&R site nearby.

One of the opponents of park and ride in the 1990s was Labour Councillor, Joyce Edmund-Smith. She was a great defender of the countryside surrounding Brighton. She rather upset folk in the small town to the west of Brighton when she said "I've always thought of Hove as a park and ride site".

 

[drew]

economic benefits of pedestrianisation - Google Scholar

Or you could try this one, about Taunton:-

http://www.somerset.gov.uk/irj/go/km/docs/CouncilDocuments/SCC/Documents/Environment/Strategic%20Planning/TTPP/TTC%20PIP%20Issues%20and%20Options%20Report%20(RB)%20v0.1.pdf

The improved environment produced by a reduction in traffic is asserted to induce shoppers to spend more, creating an economic benefit. If this benefit outweighs the costs of pedestrianisation and the associated rerouting of traffic it can be viewed as economically efficient.

Obviously, however, shoppers still need to be able access the area in question for these benefits to be realised and significant concerns exist that pedestrianisation can prevent them from doing this. However, theory suggests a number of factors act to prevent this from happening:

1. A significant proportion of traffic will simply be passing though, making no contribution to the local economy (whilst still imposing a cost on it).
2. Motorists visiting shops are likely to continue to drive for the majority of their journey. Modal shift is only likely in the final stages of the journey, e.g. to park and ride (Parkhurst, 2003 and TTR, 2002).
3. The importance of car travel in accessing retail areas is often overestimated.

In summary, it is clear that pedestrianisation can make a valuable contribution to the economy that outweighs any negative effects it may have.

...

Summary of case study results

The studies summarised assert that pedestrianisation can give rise to significant economic benefits, if properly implemented. Furthermore it is apparent that the impact on shoppers’ travel habits tends to be minimal and the benefits accrued are potentially significant in relation to the associated costs.

This suggests that theories introduced above tend to be realised relatively successfully and that pedestrianisation is compatible with economic growth in practice also.

Are you seriously comparing Taunton (pop. 61k approx) with Brighton. One is an inland market town, the other a major tourism destination. Of course pedestrianisation improves the shopping experience but you still need to get people to the pedestrianised area. When I used to shop in Brighton, I would park in one of the multi storey car parks and then walk through Churchill Sq, which, from memory, does not allow vehicles. I could shop, drop stuff back to the car and shop some more. Discourage people from bringing their cars and they will purchase less.

Also, not sure where your argument has actually gone! The prohibitive charges are not about encouraging pedestrianisation but merely to deter people from driving into Brighton in the first place. You could pedestrianise Western Road or even Kings Road and the experience of shopping would be better as would that of walking along the front however that doesen't mean you have to stop people driving into the town in the first place surely.

 

[drew]

Is it fair to suggest that multi storey car parks blight the landscape of Brighton? From the coast, how many can you actually see? There are many other buildings of varying architectural merits that some would say contribute to the character of Brighton. Where as a place like Oxford has retained far more of it's historical character to a point where you cannot now build the car parks anyway. It's a bit like comparing the riverbank developments of London and Paris!

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Are you seriously comparing Taunton (pop. 61k approx) with Brighton?

No. I'm not claiming that Taunton is the same as Brighton. I gave you a quick pointer towards your request for any studies that show that with no traffic, local businesses thrive. There are plenty (and some, no doubt, more relevant to Brighton than the Taunton case). That particular (short) study does include a few other examples.

I can't remember the details, but there was a survey done in the 1990s of shoppers' spending in Churchill Square. When it was published, it surprised the major traders how much was being spent in their shops by bus passengers and people who had walked to the town centre. Marks & Spencer and Boots, in particular, became great advocates of a park & ride scheme for Brighton and the removal of cars from Western Road.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

I went down there at 7pm for a walk - for an HOUR (to take it up to free parking at 8pm) it was £3.50. We drove to the Marina, parked for free and simply had a longer walk. That is a ripoff - and local business can't be happy if they lose early evening trade.

I'm sure it was 6pm last time I looked