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[Politics] Liz Truss **RESIGNS 20/10/2022**



beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,955
I can't believe he was Truss's choice. I think she's been bypassed. Circumvented. Andrew Marr says she's gone next week.
political pundits said Johnson was gone for months before he actually went. even then they made a hash of it. think Truss will be around until at least the spring for others to sort out what alternative they want.
 




Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
12,023
It wasn't a soundbite, it was an interview that ran for some time. She was given two opportunities to explain the funding. I was able to find the answer myself and I could explain it in about 15 seconds.

Your posts illustrate why I'm sick of the political "debate" on here - you're trying to defend something you haven't heard, likely because you see it as an attack on your team, whereas if it was the "other team" it would be open season.

I'm minded to move all political threads to the bear pit so I don't see them, and don't feel tempted to engage, because it's a complete waste of time doing so.

(Don't waste your time replying - I'll not see it)
It isn't just on here though.
And it isn't anything new either.

For most people in this country, political views are tribal.
You pick a side and defend it against the rivals.

The idea that our government is formed after a meaningful debate, where facts are disseminated and the government follow through a mandate, given to them by the people is frankly nonsense and always has been.
 


Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
6,900
political pundits said Johnson was gone for months before he actually went. even then they made a hash of it. think Truss will be around until at least the spring for others to sort out what alternative they want.
You might be right.

Your post reminded me of something Chris Mason shared. He said that there was one survivor of David Cameron's 2014 cabinet, in Boris' last cabinet. Liz Truss.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,955
I didn't hear that interview or who she was. If she was in the shadow cabinet, or part of the energy or treasury shadow teams then I'd hope she would have a reasonable grasp of it, but again there is quite a bit of detail into how the whole of Labour's energy policies are funded that probably doesn't translate into a nice tidy soundbite for someone on a run.
well thats half the problem isnt it? politicans trying to reduce hugely complex issues into a soundbite. insulation policies proposed would cost tens of billions and take a decade, many homes probably already up to spec, savings would be order of maybe few hundreds, difficult to justify for many. so need targeted delivery and clear messaging on the overall benefits. we dont hear any of this, just "insulate the nation to save us this winter!". some object to the detail, while some rant about how evil objectors are. sensible discussion gives way to polarised positions, the majority switch off and tune it out.
 
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Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patron
Oct 27, 2003
21,488
The arse end of Hangleton
Nobody is ignoring anything, they are part of the figures that make up the 2% of GDP :facepalm:

Although the OBR have now been told to ignore the cost of Brexit, stop reporting it and only report (some more cynical than myself might say 'hide') all figures within the normal overall Government department figures.
You replied "And Covid hasn't cost 'countless billions'.". It did / has regardless of Brexit supposedly costing more. It was the falsehood you posted I was pointing out.
 




WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
27,607
You replied "And Covid hasn't cost 'countless billions'.". It did / has regardless of Brexit supposedly costing more. It was the falsehood you posted I was pointing out.
I will do this once more and then leave it so as not to take the thread off topic. It's not 'countless billions' because the OBR has counted it and put a figure on it of 2% of GDP, hence not 'countless' because it has been counted :shrug:
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,426
Hove
It wasn't a soundbite, it was an interview that ran for some time. She was given two opportunities to explain the funding. I was able to find the answer myself and I could explain it in about 15 seconds.

Your posts illustrate why I'm sick of the political "debate" on here - you're trying to defend something you haven't heard, likely because you see it as an attack on your team, whereas if it was the "other team" it would be open season.

I'm minded to move all political threads to the bear pit so I don't see them, and don't feel tempted to engage, because it's a complete waste of time doing so.

(Don't waste your time replying - I'll not
It wasn't a soundbite, it was an interview that ran for some time. She was given two opportunities to explain the funding. I was able to find the answer myself and I could explain it in about 15 seconds.

Your posts illustrate why I'm sick of the political "debate" on here - you're trying to defend something you haven't heard, likely because you see it as an attack on your team, whereas if it was the "other team" it would be open season.

I'm minded to move all political threads to the bear pit so I don't see them, and don't feel tempted to engage, because it's a complete waste of time doing so.

(Don't waste your time replying - I'll not see it)
For anyone else then, I didn’t attack you or your point in which you asked about honest politicians and I made a point about an honest press - that was the debate I opened, but you are focussed on the answer of an MP who’s name you can’t remember and talk about putting this in the Bear Pit. Reading back, why are you posting on this thread if you don’t want a reply that isn’t gushing in agreement. I’ve not even disagreed as such, just made a point about the difficult position in adhoc interviews with surprise questions.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,426
Hove
well thats half the problem isnt it? politicans trying to reduce hugely complex issues into a soundbite. insulation policies proposed would cost tens of billions and take a decade, many homes probably already up to spec, savings would be order of maybe few hundreds, difficult to justify for many. so need targeted delivery and clear messaging on the overall benefits. we dont hear any of this, just "insulate the nation to save us this winter!". some object to the detail, while some rant about how evil objectors are. sensible discussion gives way to polarised positions, the majority switch off and tune it out.
It’s a very complex subject that I wouldn’t necessarily expect a random MP put on the spot to have the specific answers to. Reading a bit further I think they expect that 19m insulated homes reduces your gas imports by 15% - again quite how you get to that I don’t know but makes sense you’re significantly reducing heating demand.
 




Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
58,718
hassocks
...and to follow-up on myself, this is important because after hearing the interview I was left with the impression that Labour had an expensive policy that seemed to have no solid funding proposal behind it.

But, having researched it myself, I can see there is a solid funding proposal that makes sense.

How many other people listening to the interview went away to research it themselves?

The plan Labour pushed a few weeks ago wasn’t too much different to the one Truss announced, the funding had only been costed for 6 months and nothing beyond that, it mainly involved trying to cover the whole cost by a windfall tax which won’t really touch the sides.

The funding/costing was also questioned


I’m not sure either party has much of an idea.
 


Cheshire Cat

The most curious thing..
I don't think anyone has much of an idea they are prepared to go public with, because whatever it is, someone will inevitably pick some sensationalist holes in it and the idea will disappear up its own embarrassment.
 


Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
Excuse me, but where in the Brexit referendum was it stipulated that we should have the worst (and hopefuly shortest term serving) Prime Minister in history and a mad Chancellor whose only thought was to cut taxes, regardless of the fact that Covid had cost the country countless £billions, the fuel crisis due to the Ukraine war costing more £billions, the NHS running out of money, social care already run out of money, the police unable to afford officers on the beat or to properly investigate most burglaries and public transport cuts left right and centre because they can't afford to run them?
A mad Chancellor whose answer to all that was to cut taxes. And where was he going to find the money? Oh, err, well we'll borrow it! Insanity - and nothing to do with Brexit. Nor was it anywhere in the Brexit manifesto, not even the small print.
We all knew that with Brexit there would be some financial bumps in the road - and the Johnson government, for all the personal faults of it's leader, with Sunak in charge of the economy was doing a decent job of dealing with them. Blind hatred of Brexit clouded many people's view, but in many ways Sunak was the most socialist (and the best) Chancellor we've had in decades.
The red wedge that switched sides to protect Brexit didn't vote for tax cuts, especially tax cuts for the rich, any more than a vote for Brexit was a vote for Covid or a vote for a war in Ukraine - or for that matter a vote for Potter jumping ship and joining Chelsea.
The side of the Tory Party that was pushing for Leave, is the side that has control of the Party now, because Leave won. They tried a more sensible PM in Theresa May, but she was not Brexity enough for the ERG, she tried a less damaging set of arrangements (that sooner or later we will probably implement on the way back to a closer relationship with the EU). What we have had since is a government made up of those who don't believe in Brexit, but will say or do anything to further their career (Johnson and now Truss), true believers, which by definition means fools as far as I am concerned, because sensible people would just keep objecting to the madness, and very wealthy men for whom Brexit does make some sense. They could have given us Sunak this time and it would have been less terrible, but until they can get away from hard lines on what a leader can agree with the EU, we will be hampered.
 




beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,955
It’s a very complex subject that I wouldn’t necessarily expect a random MP put on the spot to have the specific answers to. Reading a bit further I think they expect that 19m insulated homes reduces your gas imports by 15% - again quite how you get to that I don’t know but makes sense you’re significantly reducing heating demand.
i do. or, if they cant critique specific detail or put forward sensible alternative, they should stay out. instead of parroting some trite slogans that ignore many details. the sound bite has impoverished our politics, slogans matter more than actual policy now.
 


KZNSeagull

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
21,028
Wolsingham, County Durham
It’s a very complex subject that I wouldn’t necessarily expect a random MP put on the spot to have the specific answers to. Reading a bit further I think they expect that 19m insulated homes reduces your gas imports by 15% - again quite how you get to that I don’t know but makes sense you’re significantly reducing heating demand.
Maybe I am old fashioned, but I expect all MPs to know the specifics of their own party's policies. In fact, that should be the bare minimum I would expect - they should also have a good grasp of the other parties policies too.
 
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Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
You replied "And Covid hasn't cost 'countless billions'.". It did / has regardless of Brexit supposedly costing more. It was the falsehood you posted I was pointing out.
You said "countless billions" and then attached figures, do you see?
 




Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,426
Hove
i do. or, if they cant critique specific detail or put forward sensible alternative, they should stay out. instead of parroting some trite slogans that ignore many details. the sound bite has impoverished our politics, slogans matter more than actual policy now.
As I said earlier what has impoverished our politics is a less than truthful press, jumping at every twist, miss read, or interpretation they can find. If you can parade a bus with a blatant lie with no consequence, what chance is there for a politician wishing to give a detailed honest answer knowing the slightest misstep will be pounced upon.
 




Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
The plan Labour pushed a few weeks ago wasn’t too much different to the one Truss announced, the funding had only been costed for 6 months and nothing beyond that, it mainly involved trying to cover the whole cost by a windfall tax which won’t really touch the sides.

The funding/costing was also questioned


I’m not sure either party has much of an idea.
Insulating homes has an ongoing benefit, you don't need to keep insulating the same homes, so that portion is fully costed. If the holding down of a price cap is costing government, we would have to assume that means that the energy producers continue to be making vast profits, so I assume they would tax the next windfall again if necessary. Reducing demand by insulating should do something to ease the supply costs anyway.
Longer term I think Labour has plans to implement some form of public ownership of at least parts of renewable energy production in the UK, to be less vulnerable to market forces.
The costs of Tory proposals could also be much higher than they envisage, especially if they increase the cost of the borrowing they will need to do, by not having funded spending.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,955
Longer term I think Labour has plans to implement some form of public ownership of at least parts of renewable energy production in the UK, to be less vulnerable to market forces.
The costs of Tory proposals could also be much higher than they envisage, especially if they increase the cost of the borrowing they will need to do, by not having funded spending.
whats happening here is using events to drive another agenda. nationalisation doesnt help renewable cost unless you change the way market pricing is strucutured (largely to help renewables 20yrs ago). if you change the market structure, you dont need to nationalise.
tory policy is just as borked, keeping the market structure because its good for business revenues and investments rather than fix the root problem.
 




The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
26,023
West is BEST
Without wishing to turn this into a Brexit thread, keeping the UK in the customs union and the single market would not of united the country - it would have served the wants of people who didn't want Brexit. And therein lies the challenge on that particular subject - there really isn't a middle ground - regardless of which side of the argument you sit on.
Thing is, it turns out “the wants” of those who didn’t want Brexit were correct. Should have listened ti us…..
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,711
Faversham
well thats half the problem isnt it? politicans trying to reduce hugely complex issues into a soundbite. insulation policies proposed would cost tens of billions and take a decade, many homes probably already up to spec, savings would be order of maybe few hundreds, difficult to justify for many. so need targeted delivery and clear messaging on the overall benefits. we dont hear any of this, just "insulate the nation to save us this winter!". some object to the detail, while some rant about how evil objectors are. sensible discussion gives way to polarised positions, the majority switch off and tune it out.
In fairness to them all, when they are interviewed, they are goaded into doing this by journalists. Even on BBC. If a labour MP dares to criticise the government then interviewer demands to know exactly what labour would do to three decimal places, and then demands to know if this is costed (etc etc). They would do exactly the same if labour were in power and the tories were in opposition, mind - I don't regard the mainstream media as biased. But they do enjoy making politicians squirm, or force them to nail a policy to a mast as a hostage to fortune so they can mock them months later.

I have often said that the people get the governments they deserve. They also get the journalism they deserve, too. And yet it is hard to stay out of the tough, and we all get sucked into the fun and games when our confirmation bias clitoris is being tickled, myself included.
 


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