Ethnic Minorities and CCTV

[Bakero]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaexpress View Post
The reason we're there is because they started blowing us up first, were you born after 9/11 ?

I've just realised it was you that posted this! And you have the nerve to suggest that I'm an idiot

 

[bhaexpress]

No I haven't what? Who was a cut and paste expert too? WTF?

EDIT: Ok, I see you were saying someone else you lost an argument with was a cut and paste expert. I'm having to cut and paste because you choose to ignore everything I say.

I have lost no argument, you have still not given an example but as you're not that bright I can't see the point of continuing this. Let's try getting back to the original purpose of this thread shall we ? Try answering these simple questions directly.

Question 1. CCTV, what is it there for ?

Question 2, So there I am, walking down the street minding my own business and breaking no laws, why should I be concerned that my progress is being watched ?

Question3. I am walking along minding my own business then suddenly I am mugged, I know that the CCTV camera will not jump of it's mountings and save me but there's a good chance that the act will be seen and thus aid will be despatched to me a lot sooner. Failing that the camera gets a good view of the perpetrator and this helps with their capture and conviction. The question is, just what is wrong with that ?

Last question, No.4 What possible use would any government have for personal data on me ?

I would love to see your response but I won't hold my breathe.

 

[Bakero]

I have lost no argument, you have still not given an example but as you're not that bright I can't see the point of continuing this. Let's try getting back to the original purpose of this thread shall we ? Try answering these simple questions directly.

Question 1. CCTV, what is it there for ?

Question 2, So there I am, walking down the street minding my own business and breaking no laws, why should I be concerned that my progress is being watched ?

Question3. I am walking along minding my own business then suddenly I am mugged, I know that the CCTV camera will not jump of it's mountings and save me but there's a good chance that the act will be seen and thus aid will be despatched to me a lot sooner. Failing that the camera gets a good view of the perpetrator and this helps with their capture and conviction. The question is, just what is wrong with that ?

Last question, No.4 What possible use would any government have for personal data on me ?

I would love to see your response but I won't hold my breathe.

Ok.

1. CCTV has it's use in certain places- shops being a prime example. I can see that this would be useful. It would provide evidence leading to the prosecution of shoplifters. Street CCTV I do not feel is necessary. As previously stated it is not effective and I do not feel its use is justified.

2. Again, as previously stated, just because you have nothing to hide, why should the government/police have the right to watch you? This may seem like a small thing now but where does it end? Perhaps you should read up on totalitarian societies. You may find this alarmist but are you not slightly concerned that no developed society is as 'surveilled' as us.

3. CCTV is not effective- Home Office research supports this claim. I have posted the link to the research twice. I also provided a case study involving my brother. If it doesn't work to deter crime or assist in prosecution, what's the point?

4. The UK is seen as a pioneer of mass surveillance. At the end of 2006 it was described by the Surveillance Studies Network as being 'the most surveilled country' among the industrialized Western states.[5]

On 6 February 2009 a report by the House of Lords Constitution Committee, Surveillance: Citizens and the State, warned that increasing use of surveillance by the government and private companies is a serious threat to freedoms and constitutional rights, stating that "The expansion in the use of surveillance represents one of the most significant changes in the life of the nation since the end of the Second World War. Mass surveillance has the potential to erode privacy. As privacy is an essential pre-requisite to the exercise of individual freedom, its erosion weakens the constitutional foundations on which democracy and good governance have traditionally been based in this country."

It's not all about you in the here and now. The erosion of civil liberties has the potential to affect us all as well as future generations.

Any more questions?

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Not sure about iraq, but afghanistan is on the news everyday.

Always nice to see someone coming out with a quote that is shit - and wrong. The Iraqis are happy blowing themselves up, and generally so are most of the Afghanis. "Invading" soldiers are only second tier targets as far as Terry Taliban is concerned - he is happier terrorising your run-of-the-mill Afghani as that is where he build his power base.

Source: been there and currently have an Afghani in my class at College who is happy to scare people shitless with stories and pictures of how life is under TT. Better than taking second hand news from the media.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Anyone paying attention to the little Islamic enclave that is Tower Hamlets? Run by a mayor who has already threatened his staff with an email which says "don't cross me, I am the will of the people"? Run by a mayor who has been involved in postal voting fraud? Run by a mayor that Labour supported and ended up having to deselect because he was turning into their worst nightmare? Have a look for information on Luftur Rahman and then decide whether or not certain parts of the community should have extra attention devoted to them.

If the CCTV cameras were in an area which had known right wing sympathies all the hand-wringers on here would be creaming their pants about them being "justifiably controlled" and "monitored". Getting offended on behalf of our ethnic friends is turning into a career for some people on here, as is trotting out the usual "racist" tag to everyone that dares to disagree. Focus on the people who cause the most problems, whether with CCTV, increased police presence or a reminder that actually in this country you should behave as most of the country behaves and you can't go far wrong. It's not totalitarian, I just don't fancy getting blown up next time someone decides that they want to make a statement - and we have crippled and hobbled our defence mechanisms to the point where we go round putting plastic bags over cameras because it offends people!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Ok.

1. CCTV has it's use in certain places- shops being a prime example. I can see that this would be useful. It would provide evidence leading to the prosecution of shoplifters. Street CCTV I do not feel is necessary. As previously stated it is not effective and I do not feel its use is justified.

2. Again, as previously stated, just because you have nothing to hide, why should the government/police have the right to watch you? This may seem like a small thing now but where does it end? Perhaps you should read up on totalitarian societies. You may find this alarmist but are you not slightly concerned that no developed society is as 'surveilled' as us.

3. CCTV is not effective- Home Office research supports this claim. I have posted the link to the research twice. I also provided a case study involving my brother. If it doesn't work to deter crime or assist in prosecution, what's the point?

4. The UK is seen as a pioneer of mass surveillance. At the end of 2006 it was described by the Surveillance Studies Network as being 'the most surveilled country' among the industrialized Western states.[5]

On 6 February 2009 a report by the House of Lords Constitution Committee, Surveillance: Citizens and the State, warned that increasing use of surveillance by the government and private companies is a serious threat to freedoms and constitutional rights, stating that "The expansion in the use of surveillance represents one of the most significant changes in the life of the nation since the end of the Second World War. Mass surveillance has the potential to erode privacy. As privacy is an essential pre-requisite to the exercise of individual freedom, its erosion weakens the constitutional foundations on which democracy and good governance have traditionally been based in this country."

It's not all about you in the here and now. The erosion of civil liberties has the potential to affect us all as well as future generations.

Any more questions?

Kerpow!

Well done, I await the reply.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

How so, but not being able to back up what he has said ? I'm glad I don't live in your world, I'm into truth not fantasy.

I didn't say I agreed with him, I simply said he was winning the debate.

 

[Bakero]

Always nice to see someone coming out with a quote that is shit - and wrong. The Iraqis are happy blowing themselves up, and generally so are most of the Afghanis. "Invading" soldiers are only second tier targets as far as Terry Taliban is concerned - he is happier terrorising your run-of-the-mill Afghani as that is where he build his power base.

Source: been there and currently have an Afghani in my class at College who is happy to scare people shitless with stories and pictures of how life is under TT. Better than taking second hand news from the media.

I agree on one point- it is better to get your news from being there, seeing things and speaking to people. However, it's worrying that you state 'the Iraqis are happy blowing themselves up.' A bit of a generalisation don't you think?

How many cases of suicide bombings were there in Iraq pre-invasion? Who taught the Taliban how to make IEDs?

 

[somerset]

Ok.

1. Street CCTV I do not feel is necessary. As previously stated it is not effective and I do not feel its use is justified.

2. Again, as previously stated, just because you have nothing to hide, why should the government/police have the right to watch you? This may seem like a small thing now but where does it end? Perhaps you should read up on totalitarian societies. You may find this alarmist but are you not slightly concerned that no developed society is as 'surveilled' as us.

3. CCTV is not effective- Home Office research supports this claim. I have posted the link to the research twice. I also provided a case study involving my brother. If it doesn't work to deter crime or assist in prosecution, what's the point?

4. The UK is seen as a pioneer of mass surveillance. At the end of 2006 it was described by the Surveillance Studies Network as being 'the most surveilled country' among the industrialized Western states.[5]

On 6 February 2009 a report by the House of Lords Constitution Committee, Surveillance: Citizens and the State, warned that increasing use of surveillance by the government and private companies is a serious threat to freedoms and constitutional rights, stating that "The expansion in the use of surveillance represents one of the most significant changes in the life of the nation since the end of the Second World War. Mass surveillance has the potential to erode privacy. As privacy is an essential pre-requisite to the exercise of individual freedom, its erosion weakens the constitutional foundations on which democracy and good governance have traditionally been based in this country."

It's not all about you in the here and now. The erosion of civil liberties has the potential to affect us all as well as future generations.

Any more questions?

1. Street CCTV I do not feel is necessary. As previously stated it is not effective and I do not feel its use is justified. ... Who can argue with such a cohesive argument ?

2. You may find this alarmist but are you not slightly concerned that no developed society is as 'surveilled' as us. .... Very few developed societies have a comprable population density and welfare state infrastructure to support, needs must to maintain the peace surely?

3. If it doesn't work to deter crime or assist in prosecution, what's the point? ... Some studys confirm your assertion, many don't, eg, how much hooliganism is there in the stands these days, barely any because of CCTV consequences.

4. As privacy is an essential pre-requisite to the exercise of individual freedom ... Yes, freedom to do BAD things aswell as normal daily routine, you can't blithely quote reports from Liberty assuming it covers all circumstances nicely, one size does not fit all.... Q. why would it concern you if HM Gov knew where you are or where you have been, they know already, you have a credit/debit card, you take out loans and mtgs, you register to vote, you use computers,... shall I carry on?

 

[somerset]

- and we have crippled and hobbled our defence mechanisms to the point where we go round putting plastic bags over cameras because it offends people!

... so if that doesn't illustrate an erosion of civil liberties for the majority, what does?

 

[User removed 4]

Anyone paying attention to the little Islamic enclave that is Tower Hamlets? Run by a mayor who has already threatened his staff with an email which says "don't cross me, I am the will of the people"? Run by a mayor who has been involved in postal voting fraud? Run by a mayor that Labour supported and ended up having to deselect because he was turning into their worst nightmare? Have a look for information on Luftur Rahman and then decide whether or not certain parts of the community should have extra attention devoted to them.

If the CCTV cameras were in an area which had known right wing sympathies all the hand-wringers on here would be creaming their pants about them being "justifiably controlled" and "monitored". Getting offended on behalf of our ethnic friends is turning into a career for some people on here, as is trotting out the usual "racist" tag to everyone that dares to disagree. Focus on the people who cause the most problems, whether with CCTV, increased police presence or a reminder that actually in this country you should behave as most of the country behaves and you can't go far wrong. It's not totalitarian, I just don't fancy getting blown up next time someone decides that they want to make a statement - and we have crippled and hobbled our defence mechanisms to the point where we go round putting plastic bags over cameras because it offends people!

 

[somerset]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaexpress View Post
The reason we're there is because they started blowing us up first, were you born after 9/11 ?

I've just realised it was you that posted this! And you have the nerve to suggest that I'm an idiot

It is certainly not the case that every Muslim is an international terrorist, but it is a matter of statistics that the vast majority of violent international terrorists are Muslim.

 

[User removed 4]

How many cases of suicide bombings were there in Iraq pre-invasion? Who taught the Taliban how to make IEDs?

The Iranians,previously at loggerheads due to the shia/sunni divide are now active suppliers to the taliban.

 

[bhaexpress]

1. Street CCTV I do not feel is necessary. As previously stated it is not effective and I do not feel its use is justified. ... Who can argue with such a cohesive argument ?

2. You may find this alarmist but are you not slightly concerned that no developed society is as 'surveilled' as us. .... Very few developed societies have a comprable population density and welfare state infrastructure to support, needs must to maintain the peace surely?

3. If it doesn't work to deter crime or assist in prosecution, what's the point? ... Some studys confirm your assertion, many don't, eg, how much hooliganism is there in the stands these days, barely any because of CCTV consequences.

4. As privacy is an essential pre-requisite to the exercise of individual freedom ... Yes, freedom to do BAD things aswell as normal daily routine, you can't blithely quote reports from Liberty assuming it covers all circumstances nicely, one size does not fit all.... Q. why would it concern you if HM Gov knew where you are or where you have been, they know already, you have a credit/debit card, you take out loans and mtgs, you register to vote, you use computers,... shall I carry on?

Thank you for that. It makes all the points perfectly. It doesn't say much for Bakeroo mind you, clearly paranoid.

 

[willyfantastic]

why do people complain, if your not doing anything illegal the cameras will either not follow you, or you will have nothing to hide

 

[bhaexpress]

Ok.

1. CCTV has it's use in certain places- shops being a prime example. I can see that this would be useful. It would provide evidence leading to the prosecution of shoplifters. Street CCTV I do not feel is necessary. As previously stated it is not effective and I do not feel its use is justified.

2. Again, as previously stated, just because you have nothing to hide, why should the government/police have the right to watch you? This may seem like a small thing now but where does it end? Perhaps you should read up on totalitarian societies. You may find this alarmist but are you not slightly concerned that no developed society is as 'surveilled' as us.

3. CCTV is not effective- Home Office research supports this claim. I have posted the link to the research twice. I also provided a case study involving my brother. If it doesn't work to deter crime or assist in prosecution, what's the point?

4. The UK is seen as a pioneer of mass surveillance. At the end of 2006 it was described by the Surveillance Studies Network as being 'the most surveilled country' among the industrialized Western states.[5]

On 6 February 2009 a report by the House of Lords Constitution Committee, Surveillance: Citizens and the State, warned that increasing use of surveillance by the government and private companies is a serious threat to freedoms and constitutional rights, stating that "The expansion in the use of surveillance represents one of the most significant changes in the life of the nation since the end of the Second World War. Mass surveillance has the potential to erode privacy. As privacy is an essential pre-requisite to the exercise of individual freedom, its erosion weakens the constitutional foundations on which democracy and good governance have traditionally been based in this country."

It's not all about you in the here and now. The erosion of civil liberties has the potential to affect us all as well as future generations.

Any more questions?

Yes, its not about you either, all you have posted is your own personal opinion and some debatable statistics, you haven't actually come up with any valid objections apart from the fact you don't like it. I might also point out (as I already have done) that if you are doing nothing wrong what does it matter if you're being watched ? Tell you what, if it concerns you that much start wearing a hoodie so you won't be recognised, see how far that takes you.

And, once again I ask, what possible use would any government have for data about me ? And yet again you have not provided a coherent response. I'm sure you hate the idea of ID cards so should we ban passports ? Should we insist that driving licenses don't have photos on them ? At a time when fraud is at an all time high anything that can provide proof of identity cannot be such a thing. Well not unless you don't have anything worth losing.

 

[somerset]

Thank you for that. It makes all the points perfectly. It doesn't say much for Bakeroo mind you, clearly paranoid.

I guess like always on here, there is a rush to shout down anything remotely 'establishment'.... go with it, Bakero has a view, just throw good counter-points back at him/them and agree to disagree..... nobody ever bends to anothers point of view in the end anyway.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

I agree on one point- it is better to get your news from being there, seeing things and speaking to people. However, it's worrying that you state 'the Iraqis are happy blowing themselves up.' A bit of a generalisation don't you think?

How many cases of suicide bombings were there in Iraq pre-invasion? Who taught the Taliban how to make IEDs?

Suicide bombing has long been a staple of Middle East conflict - the linking of perfect death to religion has ensured that martyrdom rather than suicide is the preferred option. As for making IEDs - try the IRA, Columbians, Iranians, etc, etc. Oh, I think the CIA had a little go when the Russians were around. By virtue of them being "Improvised Explosive Devices" they are weapons of chance and tend to be created from chemicals and components that do not require extensive sourcing. In Iraq they were used in inter-tribal warfare - literally in the bodies of dead animals.

Whilst the comment about the Iraqis being "happy" blowing themselves up - clearly the power vacuum has led to the point where they are not concerned about Allied Forces being a target, they use IEDs to settle every argument.

 

[bhaexpress]

I guess like always on here, there is a rush to shout down anything remotely 'establishment'.... go with it, Bakero has a view, just throw good counter-points back at him/them and agree to disagree..... nobody ever bends to anothers point of view in the end anyway.

I know but it's this big brother premise that gets me. I would rather the state was looking out for me having lived in places where it doesn't. Too much law or not enough ? Well this is not quite the totalitarian state that some people seem to think it is and I'm sorry, if you don't like how it is here then you're free to leave.

 

[daveinprague]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaexpress View Post
The reason we're there is because they started blowing us up first, were you born after 9/11 ?

I've just realised it was you that posted this! And you have the nerve to suggest that I'm an idiot

Are you an American? If not, your 9/11 reference is pointless.
They attacked the USA. Not Britain.

The 7/7 bombings were, according to the bombers suicide videos, a response to British troops joining American troops in Iraq.


British drones are targetting Afghanis in their country pretty much daily.
We are attacking them. Not vice versa.
If Islamic forces were attacking British people daily, and occupying Britain, would you sit back and take it?
To go on about them bombing us...on 7/7 and the Glasgow failure is a bit..well..paltry.
Im not suggesting youre an idiot. Just ill informed, and being directed by propaganda.