[Albion] Club selling your seat, is this right?

[Brian Fantana]

Have to say I don't remember that but if that is the case then isn't that pretty much then in the T&Cs for the sale of those tickets. Sounds unfair but if that was part of the condition of sale there can be no argument.

They made it very clear in a few places.

 

[Weststander]

They also explicitly said there wouldn’t be any refunds for re-sold away Euro tickets

I remember that too. But they asked that anyone who’d bought them with no intention of going, to let the club know, giving someone else a chance …. Amsterdam the most prized, eligible folk had rushed to buy theirs.

 

[Professor Plum]

The club are definitely putting STH tickets back on sale if the owner is deemed not to be using the ticket enough.

I’m aware of one fan who couldn’t travel to Ajax, due to medical reasons. The club wouldn’t refund him but resold the ticket anyway. So, they sold the same seat twice.

Wrong on all counts.

The Europe away tickets were sold on the basis that there would be no refunds if the purchaser couldn’t go. It’s the same with away matches in the UK. You can see why the club doesn’t allow this. You’d have people buying tickets just in case they fancied going, knowing they could get a refund if they decided against it. Yes, there are mechanisms for managing all this but where’s the financial incentive for the club to sell and resell the same ticket? Imagine the extra workload and admin complexity.

I appreciate it’s annoying if a genuine medical emergency prevents you from going but unfortunately medical emergencies create all sorts of disruptions to your plans. I can’t remember now if there’s an option to take out insurance against medical reasons for being unable to attend but that would be one option. But the club itself would never want to get involved in assessing medical certificates, doctors’ letters and having to make judgements.

 

[dsr-burnley]

It might do, but I guess if someone challenges it and wins, the club will just stop resales, which gets us back to the empty seat scenario. Again, a shame.

Surely there is a way to compromise? Allowing people who are at death's door to get a refund (if and only if the ticket is resold), would not necessarily mean that every man and his dog would try it on.

This came up in some holiday scenario, either cruise or flights I think. It was established in law that if someone is forced to cancel their ticket and the company resells that ticket, they have to make reasonable recompense to the person whose ticket has been sold. They can't charge full price for a ticket which they have now made unavailable. They can charge a reasonable admin fee for having to sell it twice, but they can't pocket all the money.

Stating in advance that no refunds would be offered, even if the ticket is resold, would probably be an unfair contract term and therefore invalid. In the field of consumer protection, especially when a contract is between a multi-million pound business and an individual there are quite a lot of rights which the individual is not allowed to sign away. The law won't let them. I suspect this would be one of them.

 

[Weststander]

The Europe away tickets were sold on the basis that there would be no refunds if the purchaser couldn’t go. It’s the same with away matches in the UK. You can see why the club doesn’t allow this. You’d have people buying tickets just in case they fancied going, knowing they could get a refund if they decided against it. Yes, there are mechanisms for managing all this but where’s the financial incentive for the club to sell and resell the same ticket? Imagine the extra workload and admin complexity.

I appreciate it’s annoying if a genuine medical emergency prevents you from going but unfortunately medical emergencies create all sorts of disruptions to your plans. I can’t remember now if there’s an option to take out insurance against medical reasons for being unable to attend but that would be one option. But the club itself would never want to get involved in assessing medical certificates, doctors’ letters and having to make judgements.

The AEK/Ajax/Marseille home games were part of a great value package, no part refunds was part of that deal. We were away for the last game and did the honourable thing of putting them on the exchange for others, knowing no monies would hit our bank account.

 

[Professor Plum]

Surely there is a way to compromise? Allowing people who are at death's door to get a refund (if and only if the ticket is resold), would not necessarily mean that every man and his dog would try it on.

This came up in some holiday scenario, either cruise or flights I think. It was established in law that if someone is forced to cancel their ticket and the company resells that ticket, they have to make reasonable recompense to the person whose ticket has been sold. They can't charge full price for a ticket which they have now made unavailable. They can charge a reasonable admin fee for having to sell it twice, but they can't pocket all the money.

Stating in advance that no refunds would be offered, even if the ticket is resold, would probably be an unfair contract term and therefore invalid. In the field of consumer protection, especially when a contract is between a multi-million pound business and an individual there are quite a lot of rights which the individual is not allowed to sign away. The law won't let them. I suspect this would be one of them.

But how does the club decide that a purchaser is too ill to attend? There’s no way they’d want to get bogged down in arguing with supporters over how ill they were on a particular day.

As for the legal position in consumer law I’m not certain but I frequently see tickets on sale for things that are described as ‘no refunds’. Just last month I had tickets for a concert that I couldn’t attend as I unexpectedly had to fly to Hong Kong to attend a funeral. The box office wouldn’t give me a refund. Perhaps I could have put the tickets on Viagogo but there was no official refund available.

 

[dazzer6666]

Surely there is a way to compromise? Allowing people who are at death's door to get a refund (if and only if the ticket is resold), would not necessarily mean that every man and his dog would try it on.

This came up in some holiday scenario, either cruise or flights I think. It was established in law that if someone is forced to cancel their ticket and the company resells that ticket, they have to make reasonable recompense to the person whose ticket has been sold. They can't charge full price for a ticket which they have now made unavailable. They can charge a reasonable admin fee for having to sell it twice, but they can't pocket all the money.

Stating in advance that no refunds would be offered, even if the ticket is resold, would probably be an unfair contract term and therefore invalid. In the field of consumer protection, especially when a contract is between a multi-million pound business and an individual there are quite a lot of rights which the individual is not allowed to sign away. The law won't let them. I suspect this would be one of them.

The club offer insurance with each ticket for anyone that wants it for a small price

As others have said, the club explicitly stated there would be no refunds for resold European games. It wouldn’t be an unfair term if it was expressed before you bought it.

 

[mile oak]

The T&C indicates at least 25% to be attended but not sure how this correlates with being penalised for not sharing/exchanging tickets.

You get 19 games in your ST so that must be once you must attend 4.75 matches how does that work out ? must be 5 therefore how can anyone have had this penalty already when we have more than 5 games at home remaining?

 

[Brian Fantana]

The club offer insurance with each ticket for anyone that wants it for a small price

As others have said, the club explicitly stated there would be no refunds for resold European games. It wouldn’t be an unfair term if it was expressed before you bought it.

Providing they hadn't buried it somewhere in the Ts&Cs, which they very much didn't when it came to these European tickets.

 

[Han Solo]

Surely there is a way to compromise? Allowing people who are at death's door to get a refund (if and only if the ticket is resold), would not necessarily mean that every man and his dog would try it on.

This came up in some holiday scenario, either cruise or flights I think. It was established in law that if someone is forced to cancel their ticket and the company resells that ticket, they have to make reasonable recompense to the person whose ticket has been sold. They can't charge full price for a ticket which they have now made unavailable. They can charge a reasonable admin fee for having to sell it twice, but they can't pocket all the money.

Stating in advance that no refunds would be offered, even if the ticket is resold, would probably be an unfair contract term and therefore invalid. In the field of consumer protection, especially when a contract is between a multi-million pound business and an individual there are quite a lot of rights which the individual is not allowed to sign away. The law won't let them. I suspect this would be one of them.

I posted this to ChatGPT, asking if it was correctly interpreted UK consumer law, and got this answer. No idea if it is helpful/useful but here goes:

The interpretation you've provided is mostly on the right track, but there are a few nuances to clarify regarding UK consumer law, particularly with respect to the concepts of refunds, cancellations, and reselling tickets. Here's a breakdown:

1. Refunds and Resold Tickets:​

Under UK consumer law, consumers do have certain rights if they cancel or can’t attend an event, such as a flight or holiday. However, the right to a refund depends on the terms and conditions of the service provider and the circumstances surrounding the cancellation.

• For things like flights or holiday bookings, most providers offer the option to resell the ticket or booking (e.g., through transfer policies or rebooking schemes). If the ticket is successfully resold, consumers may have the right to reasonable recompense for the resale value. However, this is not an automatic right — it depends on the specific contract terms and whether the company has any formal resale policy.
• In general, the company does not have to refund the full price unless the consumer has a legal right to cancel (such as in the case of a breach of contract, misrepresentation, or under statutory rights related to faulty goods or services).
• If a consumer has to cancel and the company resells the ticket, reasonable reimbursement could include a proportionate refund. However, the company may deduct reasonable administration fees or other costs, depending on the terms of the contract.

2. No Refund Policy:​

Stating in advance that no refunds will be offered, even if the ticket is resold, is not necessarily unlawful. However, this would depend on the terms and whether they are deemed unfair under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (which protects consumers from unfair contract terms). If the no-refund policy is deemed unfair or disproportionate, it could be challenged.
For example, a term in the contract that:

• Completely denies a consumer's right to a refund under certain circumstances (like illness, death, or a flight cancellation),
• or does not allow reasonable options for cancellation or reselling (in cases where reselling is feasible), might be deemed unfair and therefore unenforceable.

This is particularly important in cases where one party (typically the business) has a disproportionate bargaining power over the other (the consumer).

3. Consumer Rights in Contracts with Businesses:​

You’re correct that consumer protection law in the UK typically limits the extent to which businesses can take advantage of consumers in contracts. This is especially true when the business is a large entity and the consumer is an individual with less bargaining power. Contracts between consumers and businesses are subject to statutory protections, and the courts or regulators may find certain clauses invalid if they are deemed to be unfair under the law.
For instance, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 provides that terms in a contract that create an imbalance between the parties to the detriment of the consumer may be deemed unfair and therefore unenforceable.

4. Compromise and Resale Policy:​

Your idea of allowing a refund only if the ticket is resold could be a reasonable compromise, but it would depend on the specific contractual agreement between the consumer and the provider. The key issue would be whether the terms of sale allow for such a resale arrangement and how reasonable the terms are perceived in practice.
For instance, if the service provider resells the ticket, a consumer might be entitled to a reasonable share of the proceeds (after any admin fees), but this would likely need to be explicitly stated in the terms and conditions at the time of booking.

Conclusion:​

In essence, your interpretation is generally sound, but it could be made clearer by specifying that consumer rights in the UK depend on:

1. The terms of the specific contract.
2. The circumstances under which the cancellation occurs.
3. Whether any terms are found to be unfair under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 or other relevant legislation.

A no-refund policy (even if the ticket is resold) could potentially be challenged as unfair, especially if it creates a disproportionate burden on the consumer or is too restrictive. However, a refund or compensation policy tied to a resold ticket is more likely to be acceptable if framed reasonably and in accordance with the relevant laws.

 

[dsr-burnley]

The club offer insurance with each ticket for anyone that wants it for a small price

As others have said, the club explicitly stated there would be no refunds for resold European games. It wouldn’t be an unfair term if it was expressed before you bought it.

Whether or not it is morally correct that any contract term can be inserted into a consumer sale agreement if both parties agree, it's not legally correct. Certain consumer rights cannot be waived by the consumer even if he wants to.

This reasonably brief article gives some examples. See especially paragraphs 53 and 54, regarding windfall gains in the case of non-refundable prepaid services. What I think it means, and this applied in the holiday example I gave above, is that I believe that for a company to say there are no refunds under any circumstances and then sell the ticket again, would be a windfall gain and an unfair (and hence unenforceable) contract term.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450410/Unfair_Terms_Explained.pdf

(edit - see also Han Solo's article above which was posted a minute before mine.)

 

[mile oak]

Surely there is a way to compromise? Allowing people who are at death's door to get a refund (if and only if the ticket is resold), would not necessarily mean that every man and his dog would try it on.

This came up in some holiday scenario, either cruise or flights I think. It was established in law that if someone is forced to cancel their ticket and the company resells that ticket, they have to make reasonable recompense to the person whose ticket has been sold. They can't charge full price for a ticket which they have now made unavailable. They can charge a reasonable admin fee for having to sell it twice, but they can't pocket all the money.

Stating in advance that no refunds would be offered, even if the ticket is resold, would probably be an unfair contract term and therefore invalid. In the field of consumer protection, especially when a contract is between a multi-million pound business and an individual there are quite a lot of rights which the individual is not allowed to sign away. The law won't let them. I suspect this would be one of them.

very interesting reply. I think the club would get a lot of bad PA depending how they respond, that said unless it effects numbers of ppl i doubt they will be stopped doing whatever they want. When they sold ST at Gillingham (on basis playing locally INITIALLY then moved and arguably the goalposts and terms of sale etc.) I know someone that made a claim against the club (wasnt the only one) and they got just a third back) I suspect not much has changed for the club its all making money which of course in some respects is fair enough else its a very expensive hobby but care for the fans yeah the club do to an extent and where it can be seen after all the sells good vibes sells interest sells seats sells mecrh and makes money but its posts i this thread like someone becoming ill and thats bad enough then having your football taken away some of this just seems cruel unnecessary and rightly has angered and upset some ppl on this thread.

 

[mile oak]

Whether or not it is morally correct that any contract term can be inserted into a consumer sale agreement if both parties agree, it's not legally correct. Certain consumer rights cannot be waived by the consumer even if he wants to.

This reasonably brief article gives some examples. See especially paragraphs 53 and 54, regarding windfall gains in the case of non-refundable prepaid services. What I think it means, and this applied in the holiday example I gave above, is that I believe that for a company to say there are no refunds under any circumstances and then sell the ticket again, would be a windfall gain and an unfair (and hence unenforceable) contract term.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450410/Unfair_Terms_Explained.pdf

(edit - see also Han Solo's article above which was posted a minute before mine.)

and see

"Disproportionate sanctions 56. Terms that permit the trader to impose disproportionally severe sanctions for breach of contract are likely to be unfair."

 

[dazzer6666]

Whether or not it is morally correct that any contract term can be inserted into a consumer sale agreement if both parties agree, it's not legally correct. Certain consumer rights cannot be waived by the consumer even if he wants to.

This reasonably brief article gives some examples. See especially paragraphs 53 and 54, regarding windfall gains in the case of non-refundable prepaid services. What I think it means, and this applied in the holiday example I gave above, is that I believe that for a company to say there are no refunds under any circumstances and then sell the ticket again, would be a windfall gain and an unfair (and hence unenforceable) contract term.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450410/Unfair_Terms_Explained.pdf

(edit - see also Han Solo's article above which was posted a minute before mine.)

Yeah, but they did it and nothing above confirms absolutely that they couldn’t

 

[mile oak]

It takes 30 seconds - you have nothing to lose by listing it.

If game doesnt go ahead e.g. rescheduled or abandonded etc then I say yes small risk you lose opportunity to attend the revised game as you dont get opportunity back to reclaim the seat. Of course your personal circumstances can change too. So ultimately I believe you can lose listing and I know someone that never lists but only misses 3 or 4 games a season so probably doesnt quite get caught by the club net. Can you imagine the club taking a ST away from say a kid that goes with Mum.or Dad? Something isnt right with the system in place.

 

[pigmanovich]

If game doesnt go ahead e.g. rescheduled or abandonded etc then I say yes small risk you lose opportunity to attend the revised game as you dont get opportunity back to reclaim the seat.

To be fair tickets don’t tend to go on sale until date and kickoff have been finalized so this shouldn’t be an issue most of the time!

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Surely there is a way to compromise? Allowing people who are at death's door to get a refund (if and only if the ticket is resold), would not necessarily mean that every man and his dog would try it on.

This came up in some holiday scenario, either cruise or flights I think. It was established in law that if someone is forced to cancel their ticket and the company resells that ticket, they have to make reasonable recompense to the person whose ticket has been sold. They can't charge full price for a ticket which they have now made unavailable. They can charge a reasonable admin fee for having to sell it twice, but they can't pocket all the money.

Stating in advance that no refunds would be offered, even if the ticket is resold, would probably be an unfair contract term and therefore invalid. In the field of consumer protection, especially when a contract is between a multi-million pound business and an individual there are quite a lot of rights which the individual is not allowed to sign away. The law won't let them. I suspect this would be one of them.

Where do you draw the line? Deaths door? Broken leg? Bad flu? Sick child? House move rescheduled? Plenty of things will and do occur, hence the offering of insurance. People can choose whether or not to buy the insurance and then the loss is on them. If the club offered refunds they would need to take all the steps an insurance company would to prevent fraud, and I think we can agree that is beyond them. So no refunds.

The next step is whether it is fair and legal to resell the ticket. The person doesn't have to tell the club they can't go, but if they do, is it fair to deny another fan the chance to go instead? We want our away ends to be full. I think we all want that. But if it's confirmed as not legal to do so, the club just won't offer the ticket for resale and there will be empty seats.

 

[sparkie]

Clear in the T&Cs unfortunately - they can take action if you don't attend a certain % (this is the first time I've heard of it actually happening), and if you don't list on the exchange or share your ticket

The dread email also mentions "personnal attendance" but this may just be part of unclear wording with respect to selling on the exchange/friends and family.

Once I received the email, I listed the Brentford, Arsenal and Everton games on the exchange. All 3 listed tickets sold.

 

[DarrenFreemansPerm]

I suspect you are correct; I certainly hope so. Otherwise, it shows that the club's attitude toward supporters has taken a deep dive.

As I’ve posted more than a few times, the fan in question has been through his email accounts forensically, he found 1 email in his junk box.

 

[DarrenFreemansPerm]

I might be missing the point here but if someone knows they're not going to be able to go to a chunk of home games for a particular reason, it doesn't take longer than 5 minutes to list them all on the exchange.

And if it sells but you find it’s one you can attend?