[Politics] Brexit

[portlock seagull]

'Whiter than white'?

Better, I guess, than . . ..well...let's not go there (woodpiles etc).

Apart from that... the EU don't need to do nuffink. We decided to leave....it is up to us to ask for things....the default is hard Brexit....if we want some deals we have to ask for things....but we are still arguing amongst ourselves what it is we want.....step back and survey the landscape....it can be very easy to forget who is who and what is what....

What's wrong with whiter than white as a phrase? Don't tell me this is now a 'racist term'? Can we use any terms with Black or White in them?!

 

[portlock seagull]

May seeking cross party support would have split the Conservatives, would have fractured the government and weakened them. It would however have strengthened Brexit, because Labour would be forced to the table through the opportunity of power that would have represented. The referendum split both main parties, the party in government had more to lose, but to have properly enacted Brexit, that had to happen.

Brexit would have been fairly simple under a government with a large majority. As a country, we are simply not used to governance with such a slender majority. We think it is a betrayal of Brexit, or whatever else, but actually it is simply a leader whose blinkered approach couldn't accept she had a majority to get this through.

That's not a word I'd ever use in the context of Brexit!

 

[Hampster Gull]

This is going well

 

[clapham_gull]

Seeing the recent contributions on this and the other Brexit thread I was reminded of this article ...

When historians of the future look back on Britain in our time, they will surely see our row over Brexit as extraordinary. Not because people disagree and campaign: that is normal and healthy; but because an influential section of the country, and particularly of its upper classes, are refusing to accept the will of the majority as legitimate or binding. It is no exaggeration to call this a revolt, even though it rarely hits the streets. Its unusual nature is shown by the arguments of its hardline supporters – arguments that would undermine any democratic system, and which have rarely been heard in any advanced country since the nineteenth century. For example: that most voters do not know what they are voting for; that working-class voters are too ignorant to make a choice; that people without advanced education should have their political rights reduced; that older people’s opinions have inferior legitimacy. Leaving aside ethical questions concerning equal rights – questions that most of us would have thought had been resolved by the end of the 19th century – these views show astonishing misunderstanding of what democracy is and what it is for. They lack the slightest degree of historical awareness – yet they are put forward with assurance by people who openly regard themselves as superior in education and intelligence.


More....

https://brexitcentral.com/three-categories-revolting-remainer-makes-tick/

The problem with the above is that it's nonsense. Nothing that any remainer has said or believes has caused the current mess.

1) The country voted out (tick)
2) Both major parties put leaving in their manifesto (tick)

The problem is that Parliament can't agree on what leaving looks like and it's specifically the LEAVERS who are arguing.

If you want to vent your anger - vent it at the hard line Brexiteers in the Tory party.

You couldn't make it up. Brexiteers like yourself blaming remain supporters outside parliament.

Wouldn't that be hilarious if we end up staying in. Who Killed Brexit ? Answer: Rees Mogg.

 

[WATFORD zero]

That’s a bit daft as even the EU recognised it as a negotiation especially as one of their major contributors was leaving

So what elements of the EU do you believe were open to 'negotiation' as I have always seen it as a very simple narrative rather than any sort of 'negotiation'.

For goodness sake, 3 years on, we still can't agree what we should be asking the EU for. We still have no idea what we want to do about the NI/Ireland border, the single biggest issue since the day after the referendum.

How on earth can that be a negotiation between two parties when one still doesn't know what it wants

 

[WATFORD zero]

The problem with the above is that it's nonsense. Nothing that any remainer has said or believes has caused the current mess.

1) The country voted out (tick)
2) Both major parties put leaving in their manifesto (tick)

The problem is that Parliament can't agree on what leaving looks like and it's specifically the LEAVERS who are arguing.

If you want to vent your anger - vent it at the hard line Brexiteers in the Tory party.

You couldn't make it up. Brexiteers like yourself blaming remain supporters outside parliament.

Wouldn't that be hilarious if we end up staying in. Who Killed Brexit ? Answer: Rees Mogg.

THIS

It's not Remainers, Theresa May, the EU, The Russians, Tony Blair, Uncle Tom Cobley or anyone else to blame.

This total and complete f*** up is down to the leave voters and them alone.

How can anyone feign surprise at this when they have been told this is exactly what would happen all along

 

[portlock seagull]

Seeing the recent contributions on this and the other Brexit thread I was reminded of this article ...

When historians of the future look back on Britain in our time, they will surely see our row over Brexit as extraordinary. Not because people disagree and campaign: that is normal and healthy; but because an influential section of the country, and particularly of its upper classes, are refusing to accept the will of the majority as legitimate or binding. It is no exaggeration to call this a revolt, even though it rarely hits the streets. Its unusual nature is shown by the arguments of its hardline supporters – arguments that would undermine any democratic system, and which have rarely been heard in any advanced country since the nineteenth century. For example: that most voters do not know what they are voting for; that working-class voters are too ignorant to make a choice; that people without advanced education should have their political rights reduced; that older people’s opinions have inferior legitimacy. Leaving aside ethical questions concerning equal rights – questions that most of us would have thought had been resolved by the end of the 19th century – these views show astonishing misunderstanding of what democracy is and what it is for. They lack the slightest degree of historical awareness – yet they are put forward with assurance by people who openly regard themselves as superior in education and intelligence.


More....

https://brexitcentral.com/three-categories-revolting-remainer-makes-tick/

Coincidentally I was thinking earlier that in another century this would have been marked as such and put down my force of arms; so aren’t we over throwing a tyranny of sorts? Which is rather ironic given so many of the liberals elite don’t want us to leave.

 

[portlock seagull]

THIS

It's not Remainers, Theresa May, the EU, The Russians, Tony Blair, Uncle Tom Cobley or anyone else to blame.

This total and complete f*** up is down to the leave voters and them alone.

Of course it is petal. It’s that simple.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So what elements of the EU do you believe were open to 'negotiation' as I have always seen it as a very simple narrative rather than any sort of 'negotiation'.

For goodness sake, 3 years on, we still can't agree what we should be asking the EU for. We still have no idea what we want to do about the NI/Ireland border, the single biggest issue since the day after the referendum.

How on earth can that be a negotiation between two parties when one still doesn't know what it wants

It's not just the Irish border. Most people are forgetting that Gibraltar (who have an MEP) voted Remain, and Brexit also messes up their border with Spain.

 

[Dorset Seagull]

So what elements of the EU do you believe were open to 'negotiation' as I have always seen it as a very simple narrative rather than any sort of 'negotiation'.

For goodness sake, 3 years on, we still can't agree what we should be asking the EU for. We still have no idea what we want to do about the NI/Ireland border, the single biggest issue since the day after the referendum.

How on earth can that be a negotiation between two parties when one still doesn't know what it wants

Well the EU didn’t just say oh ok cheerio then so I assume that’s why they decided to enter into a negotiation

 

[portlock seagull]

The problem with the above is that it's nonsense. Nothing that any remainer has said or believes has caused the current mess.

1) The country voted out (tick)
2) Both major parties put leaving in their manifesto (tick)

The problem is that Parliament can't agree on what leaving looks like and it's specifically the LEAVERS who are arguing.

If you want to vent your anger - vent it at the hard line Brexiteers in the Tory party.

You couldn't make it up. Brexiteers like yourself blaming remain supporters outside parliament.

Wouldn't that be hilarious if we end up staying in. Who Killed Brexit ? Answer: Rees Mogg.

So, for example, Remainers in charge of Leaving hasn’t been any sort of issue? I cannot believe any single group is entirely culpable for this mess. Bit like the origins of WW1, Cameron’s decision was the trigger like Sarejavo was but the causes of and catastrophe that followed is the sum of many parts all round

 

[WATFORD zero]

Well the EU didn’t just say oh ok cheerio then so I assume that’s why they decided to enter into a negotiation

Britain : Can we just forget about the border between us and the EU?

EU : No, I'm afraid you can't.

Britain : Well can we stay in the EU for another 2 years and rename the problem 'the backstop'

EU : Oh, go on then

Negotiations over 'till 2 years time (and repeat)

 

[portlock seagull]

Lets face it if you were stupid enough to vote leave last time, nothing that's happened since would have changed your mind. Having said that the result would be different as all those people that didn't vote thinking it was formality would not get out and vote.

Regardless which side you’re on, a constant theme of this saga is if you don’t agree with the way I voted then you’re stupid, an idiot etc. Which is the primary reason it’s turned toxic. Anyone still banding that insult around 2 years on really hasn’t learnt anything and arguably, with delicious irony, makes them more than IMO.

 

[drew]

There are 66m in the United Kingdom. 33.6m people voted in the referendum. Parliament governs for all of us, not just those that voted for a particular decision, mp, or party.

Part of the reason we are in this mess if because they have focussed far too much on 17m rather than delivering the decision of the referendum that serves 66m.

The main wreckers of Brexit are; 1. The Government, 2. the ERG, 3. the DUP.

Following the 2017 General Election, the Tory party should have realised that 16.3m people voted for other parties that either favoured a soft Brexit or to remain in the EU from their manifestos, and only 13.9m voted for the Tory / DUP manifesto pledges of a hard Brexit.

It would seem that from any measure, whether the referendum result itself, the subsequent general election, that a softer approach should have been pursued and cross part support obtained.

The bloody disgrace without a shadow of a doubt lies with the government and the PM.

Have to agree with this.

 

[Mental Lental]

Have the government f***ed it up though?

[MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] made this rather nice summary on the Brexit Threadnaught:

1) Boris Johnson - when Mayor of London fiercly in favour of both closer ties with the EU and the single market ("I would vote to stay in the single market," Johnson told Sky News in 2013. "I'm in favour of the single market. I want us to be able to trade freely with our European friends and partners.") - joining Vote Leave and putting a load of bollocks on a bus about the NHS, probably just to further his own political career, which has now seen his lardy backside atttached to a back bench. https://www.businessinsider.com/bori...18-2?r=US&IR=T

2) A PM who promised the referendum failling to get the result he wanted in it and having to resign forthwith.

3) His replacement - a remain campaigner - left in charge of negotiating something she was against until said PM had to quit.

4) The replacement then calling an opportunist election as she thought Labour were split - only to find her own party even more split and her majority all but destroyed.

5) The destruction of said majority leaving the replacement former remainer no choice but to align with a very small number of Northern Irish extremists - when the key issue to getting Brexit delivered was always going to be the need to maintain the open Irish border as per the Good Friday agreement.

6) So much time being spent on forging this partnership and doing a terrible job of negotiating a Brexit she never believed in that Northern Ireland has not had a proper devolved government for 787 days and counting https://howlonghasnorthernirelandnothadagovernment.com/

7) Eventually coming back with a deal with the EU that was immedaitely obvious would not get past her own back bench or her Northern Irish crutch. Putting the same deal to the house twice (and counting) whilst ruling out a new referendum that would essentially do the same thing. Setting some kind of record for government defeats, the nadir of which was.....

8) A vote on no deal that ended up with a three line whip against, despite it being a government motion. The former remainer voting for a no deal Brexit and STILL losing. Cabinet split three ways.

 

[portlock seagull]

A remainer would not be in charge of leaving. The people in charge are leavers by definition. Leavers need to face the fact that they have no idea what they are doing.

Except the Prime Minister herself?

 

[portlock seagull]

She is clearly a leaver. Why would she negotiate a way to LEAVE, be leader of a party who pledged to LEAVE?

Someone’s not been paying attention these past two years.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

She is clearly a leaver. Why would she negotiate a way to LEAVE, be leader of a party who pledged to LEAVE?

Because her husband stands to make millions out of it, just as much as any of the ERG.
She stood for leadership, tried to kick start A50 immediately but had to battle it out in court when Gina Miller rightly said it needed an Act of Parliament. She then set the ball rolling as soon as she possibly could.

 

[clapham_gull]

What? If she was remain like you claim she would have rescinded article 50 the day she became PM. She didn't, she persisted with brexit. So she is a leaver.

Bonkers isn't it ?

Brexit supporters now blaming everyone else except their representatives who simply can't agree on how to leave.

Nothing to do with small amount of MPs who openly want to remain or have a second vote.

The problem is quite obviously the DUP. They are quite understandably more concerned about the break up of the Union than leaving the EU.

If staying in the EU means having the same laws as England then it's clearly the lesser of two evils to them.

What's odd is the substantial amount of Tory MPs who simply follow their every word.

The can attack May's deal all they like, but they haven't come up viable to oppose it.

 

[DavePage]