[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

The 2017 Tory manifesto explicitly says we will smoothly leave the EU with a deal:

View attachment 112546

Unless you are advocating parties undemocratically reneging on manifesto promises, you must be of the opinion that we shouldn't be leaving the EU without a deal in place, which ensures a smooth and orderly Brexit.

And the same manifesto explicitly states
“but we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK”

 

[Lincoln Imp]

And the same manifesto explicitly states
“but we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK”

View attachment 112577

To leave with a deal is a commitment. The no deal aside is a rumination.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I voted remain before and I would vote remain again if there was another vote, but I don't think there should be one. All the stuff about the 2016 vote being 'advisory' is a smokesreen, people voted on the basis that the government would accede to a majority decision, and therefore that should be the case.

If another vote did take place then even if there was a swing towards remain at most it would be something like 53-47, which is not a significant mandate and would leave more people being disenfranchised than there are at present. Even so there's a fair chance that the next vote would still be to leave the EU, the margins are too tight to call.

The attitude taken by many remain supporters towards those that voted leave has contributed towards leavers doubling down in their position and if I'd voted leave I suspect I would have done the same.

Leave voters are not all racists (although all racists did vote leave), they are not all stupid. Remain voters constantly pecking at them in respect of the economic costs of Brexit is irrelevant as Leavers didn't vote for Brexit because of its impact on GDP. Equally a bit more thought from Leavers in terms of the impact that Brexit has upon Northern Ireland, supply chains and those industries that benefit from EU wide grants and funds would make sense too, as industries such as mine have been significantly hit by the vote in terms of exports and employment.

The EU is bureaucratic, costly and has systemic weaknesses that allow corruption and patronage, all valid criticisms. The economic benefits of a single market, protection of worker and consumer rights and freedom of movement for me outweigh those costs, but if something thinks the opposite their viewpoint and vote should be respected.

What has happened since the vote has been an embarrassment on both sides, culminating with the "oh aren't we so smug Bollocks to Brexit" T shirts being worn by the Lib Dems and the ignorant childishness of the Brexit party turning their backs last week.

What should be done now is politicians acting in an adult manner to negotiate a deal that will minimise the economic damage of Brexit, especially the lunacy of a no deal one. It's better to lose two fingers than a whole hand and that should be the aim. We've had a decade of low growth due to the destruction of the global economy due to the activities of bankers, accountants and lawyers, we should now do our best to negotiate a relationship with the EU that allows for trade, co-operation and peaceful coexistence.

What we are seeing instead is self serving and manipulative politicians telling whatever lies they think will most impress a small section of society to increase their power base, and that is irresponsible and unforgiveable...but representative of the times we live in.

Not possible. Nobody has elaborated what a deal (even a shit deal) will look like. It cannot be done and it won't be done.

I agree with your other comments about the nation being split. But I don't agree it was whiney remainers that cause the problem. Unless you subscribe to the idea that 'remainer' May sabotaged Brexit.

The triumphalism of some remainers after the vote was as unpleasant as the cry baby emoting of some remainers was embarrassing. Both are, however, irrelevant.

If Boris knows how to leave why doesn't he tell us how? Is it a.......secret? He's such a naughty boy.

 

[portslade seagull]

You really are deluded...
Sad.

... but no answer? I am not surprised .... because you have no answer.... do you Portslade seagull?

Not sure WO. I voted out so am now awaiting the end result. What does you crystal ball say

 

[pb21]

And the same manifesto explicitly states
“but we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK”

View attachment 112577

Yes, but the two statements are not mutually exclusive though.

Ultimately the current Tory manifesto commits to leaving the EU in a smooth and orderly fashion with a deal. Nowhere does it say we will leave with no deal in a disorderly manner.

 

[portslade seagull]

I think there was genuine scope for a compromise Brexit, however I lay the blame for it squarely at the feet of Cameron buggering off and May and her Government seemingly refusing to try and find one, instead opting to negotiate as the Conservative party rather than as the entire UK political system coming together (as should have happened), thus making it a party political issue. There would always be an entrenched few on either side but a lot more people had their positions hardened by the fringes because of the lack of a central, compromise position (e.g. Norway, which translates as "Out, but only just Out", which I maintain is still the most accurate interpretation of the result you will find). Many Leave voters claimed Norway was "a betrayal put forward by traitors which isn't Brexit", and many Remain voters claimed Norway was "ridiculous sop to the racists and morons".

Basically at the moment Britain needed to be led by grown-ups we ended up being dictated to by a bunch of children.

Agree with you there. A make up of all parties should have worked to get an agreeable solution rather then May trying to railroad it

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You just need to belief in Britain. We invented the tin can, gammon and Cheddar Cheese before the EU so we can do it agane.

Regards
DR

Being a little more careful today I see.

And...edited for you.

 

[Lever]

Not sure WO. I voted out so am now awaiting the end result. What does you crystal ball say

No crystal ball needed portslade seagull, but you really should either become calm before writing to avoid slips.

Now... what Brexit do you think would suit you and all your friends?

note: I use your true moniker but for some unknown reason you don't seem to be able to use mine.... what's the problem?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Not sure WO. I voted out so am now awaiting the end result. What does you crystal ball say

I'm guessing you are trying to refer to me, even though my initials are Wz. (I'm guessing spelling wasn't amongst your greatest skills), but then insist you won't vote for Johnson

Won't get my vote. Just because probably his sponsors like it I don't

Never voted Conservative in my life, but with the present incumbent in charge of labour that might change

So, although you've never voted Conservative in you life, and you aren't a member of the Tory Party, You're not going to vote for Johnson as leader of the Tories

Now everyone is entitled to be stupid beyond belief, and broadcast it to the nation, but why do you have to associate the town of by birth and upbringing (or which I am very proud) with it. That's what pisses me off

 

[WATFORD zero]

Being a little more careful today I see.

And...edited for you.

It's PPF again, not Ppf.

There is absolutely no way of telling from the content.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It's PPF again, not Ppf.

There is absolutely no way of telling from the content.

I can tell easily. The cretin is on ignore. I only see the parody posts. But I agree they are almost indistinguishable. If anything the parody is a tinsy wincy bit less gay.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm guessing you are trying to refer to me, even though my initials are Wz. (I'm guessing spelling wasn't amongst your greatest skills), but then insist you won't vote for Johnson






So, although you've never voted Conservative in you life, and you aren't a member of the Tory Party, You're not going to vote for Johnson as leader of the Tories

Now everyone is entitled to be stupid beyond belief, and broadcast it to the nation, but why do you have to associate the town of by birth and upbringing (or which I am very proud) with it. That's what pisses me off

I was brought up in Portslade and now I am ashamed.

Incidentally, and in fairness to PS, there was a regular poster on NSC called Watford O (Orient supporter) back in the day and maybe PS is having a gammon flashback.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I was brought up in Portslade and now I am ashamed.

Incidentally, and in fairness to PS, there was a regular poster on NSC called Watford O (Orient supporter) back in the day and maybe PS is having a gammon flashback.

When I first joined sometime before 2000 WATFORD O was a regular poster (****) on here before he was banned. So I set up an account called WATFORD 0 and spent a few weeks posting to much jollity, while WATFORD O accused everyone of stealing his login and password etc. After a few weeks, I got bored with winding up WATFORD O and got a mod to change it to WATFORD zero and have posted under this name ever since.

You may be right about Portslade Seagull being mistaken, but I think that my first assumption that he was as thick as two short planks is probably more accurate.

The one thing I think I can say without fear of contradiction though, is that Easthill yoof club pissed all over Courthope

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

When I first joined sometime before 2000 WATFORD O was a regular poster (****) on here before he was banned. So I set up an account called WATFORD 0 and spent a few weeks posting to much jollity, while WATFORD O accused everyone of stealing his login and password etc. After a few weeks, I got bored with winding up WATFORD O and got a mod to change it to WATFORD zero and have posted under this name ever since.

You may be right about Portslade Seagull being mistaken, but I think that my first assumption that he was as thick as two short planks is probably more accurate.

The one thing I think I can say without fear of contradiction though, is that Easthill yoof club pissed all over Courthope

I played a bit of footy at Coupthorpe in the early 70s. (I am aping your spelling as I don't have a clue).

As for your other comments - hilarous (Watford 0-1). I love all this stuff. You couldn't make it up. Well, you could, though.

So tell me, is Enrest really FG?

 

[Gwylan]

PS is having a gammon flashback.

Gammon Flashback sounds like the name of a third-rate indie band

 

[A1X]

If Boris knows how to leave why doesn't he tell us how? Is it a.......secret? He's such a naughty boy.

It's designed to fool the same people who said "we can't possibly say what the plan is before triggering A50 as we'd be showing our hand!", namely people who either realise there is no plan and reckon they can wing it or people who genuinely didn't realise there wasn't a plan and assumed it was all a clever ploy because they'd heard that poker was a bit like that and it made them feel better to think that.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Gammon Flashback sounds like the name of a third-rate indie band

No! They don't exist, or I would have seen them at the Garage 20 years ago.



(Bang to right's. I'll get my gloomy overcoat)

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's designed to fool the same people who said "we can't possibly say what the plan is before triggering A50 as we'd be showing our hand!", namely people who either realise there is no plan and reckon they can wing it or people who genuinely didn't realise there wasn't a plan and assumed it was all a clever ploy because they'd heard that poker was a bit like that and it made them feel better to think that.

Here's a couple of posts explaining that to a few leavers in early 2018

I think you are getting mixed up between International Trade Negotiations and Whist.

Whist is the one where the other player can't see your cards.

International Trade Negotiations is where both sides know absolutely everything about the other side. (I say Negotiations, Narrative would probably be more accurate in this case).

Hope this helps

Everyone knows what each other's cards are. We both know each others GDP splits, international imports, exports, government borrowing, spending and anything else we could want to know. We only need to look on the Internet

This is International Trade negotiations, not Whist FFS

Pretending it was a card game and playing our cards close to our chest was obviously what got us into this brilliant position

 

[A1X]

You see this encapsulates my single biggest fear about Brexit. The process of leaving the EU itself is a really bad idea (in my opinion) but ultimately not something which would be a fully mortal blow to democracy. However, this to me doesn't seem especially far-fetched, and it's genuinely terrifying;

[TWEET]1148324733106176001[/TWEET]

[TWEET]1148326173803503616[/TWEET]

[TWEET]1148327069786542086[/TWEET]

[TWEET]1148327652924841986[/TWEET]

This certainly wasn't what Brexiters were voting for in 2016, because this goes way, way beyond it. It's the subversion of democracy in the name of "the people". Anyone who has used the phrase "will of the people" has, knowingly or not, led us down this particular path. And I don't see how we can bring it back without something extremely unpleasant happening. It's not about Brexit, it's far more important than that.

 

[pastafarian]

Yes, but the two statements are not mutually exclusive though.

Ultimately the current Tory manifesto commits to leaving the EU in a smooth and orderly fashion with a deal. Nowhere does it say we will leave with no deal in a disorderly manner.

The two are intertwined, the manifesto states they intend to Leave with a withdrawal agreement in place, and the manifesto states if that agreement is deemed to be shit then leave the EU without a shitty agreement in place. No where does it state we should leave with a shitty agreement.
Parliament currently considers the agreement to be crap. Not sure what is so difficult to understand about all of this.