[Politics] Brexit

[Berty23]

I voted remain before and I would vote remain again if there was another vote, but I don't think there should be one. All the stuff about the 2016 vote being 'advisory' is a smokesreen, people voted on the basis that the government would accede to a majority decision, and therefore that should be the case.

If another vote did take place then even if there was a swing towards remain at most it would be something like 53-47, which is not a significant mandate and would leave more people being disenfranchised than there are at present. Even so there's a fair chance that the next vote would still be to leave the EU, the margins are too tight to call.

The attitude taken by many remain supporters towards those that voted leave has contributed towards leavers doubling down in their position and if I'd voted leave I suspect I would have done the same.

Leave voters are not all racists (although all racists did vote leave), they are not all stupid. Remain voters constantly pecking at them in respect of the economic costs of Brexit is irrelevant as Leavers didn't vote for Brexit because of its impact on GDP. Equally a bit more thought from Leavers in terms of the impact that Brexit has upon Northern Ireland, supply chains and those industries that benefit from EU wide grants and funds would make sense too, as industries such as mine have been significantly hit by the vote in terms of exports and employment.

The EU is bureaucratic, costly and has systemic weaknesses that allow corruption and patronage, all valid criticisms. The economic benefits of a single market, protection of worker and consumer rights and freedom of movement for me outweigh those costs, but if something thinks the opposite their viewpoint and vote should be respected.

What has happened since the vote has been an embarrassment on both sides, culminating with the "oh aren't we so smug Bollocks to Brexit" T shirts being worn by the Lib Dems and the ignorant childishness of the Brexit party turning their backs last week.

What should be done now is politicians acting in an adult manner to negotiate a deal that will minimise the economic damage of Brexit, especially the lunacy of a no deal one. It's better to lose two fingers than a whole hand and that should be the aim. We've had a decade of low growth due to the destruction of the global economy due to the activities of bankers, accountants and lawyers, we should now do our best to negotiate a relationship with the EU that allows for trade, co-operation and peaceful coexistence.

What we are seeing instead is self serving and manipulative politicians telling whatever lies they think will most impress a small section of society to increase their power base, and that is irresponsible and unforgiveable...but representative of the times we live in.

The penultimate paragraph here is key. How can a government made up of mps to do what is best for their constituents do something that they know will make people worse off? People voted for any number of reasons to leave and remain but once the facts start becoming clearer then politicians have to do what is right by the people. If I was given the option of cutting off two fingers or cutting off my hand I would ask if there was a third option of just leaving things as they are. The problems facing mps now is that they have realised that once the surface has been scratched it is obvious that things will get worse. When boris says “we swill still have water” and farage says “we survived the war” then that feels very different to the sunlit uplands we were promised.

The lurch to no deal which NO ONE voted for because no one had even mentioned the possibility is akin to a 52% remain leading to us scrapping parliament and joining the euro.

Now that at least some facts are known then I can’t see how an mp will be able to look themselves in the mirror if they support something that they know will hurt their constituents. It is incredibly tricky for them but the argument that some make that a democratic vote would be the end of democracy is silly. I am with Jacob Reece mogg on this when he said years ago that after a vote the final decision should go back to the public for agreement.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I think there was genuine scope for a compromise Brexit, however I lay the blame for it squarely at the feet of Cameron buggering off and May and her Government seemingly refusing to try and find one, instead opting to negotiate as the Conservative party rather than as the entire UK political system coming together (as should have happened), thus making it a party political issue. There would always be an entrenched few on either side but a lot more people had their positions hardened by the fringes because of the lack of a central, compromise position (e.g. Norway, which translates as "Out, but only just Out", which I maintain is still the most accurate interpretation of the result you will find). Many Leave voters claimed Norway was "a betrayal put forward by traitors which isn't Brexit", and many Remain voters claimed Norway was "ridiculous sop to the racists and morons".

Basically at the moment Britain needed to be led by grown-ups we ended up being dictated to by a bunch of children.

The compromise, the middle ground, what you say above, what the official Vote Leave manifesto called a 'European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it' - it's gone. It's no Brexit, or no deal now. I do increasingly feel unless there is a national outbreak of common sense and the middle ground reappears, The Brexit Party and Nigel Farage, Ann Widdecombe, Rees-Mogg's sister with a first name more like a Latin term for a sexually transmitted disease, Richard Tice et al - are going to get very close and might even get the cigar.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

The compromise, the middle ground, what you say above, what the official Vote Leave manifesto called a 'European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it' - it's gone. It's no Brexit, or no deal now. I do increasingly feel unless there is a national outbreak of common sense and the middle ground reappears, The Brexit Party and Nigel Farage, Ann Widdecombe, Rees-Mogg's sister with a first name more like a Latin term for a sexually transmitted disease, Richard Tice et al - are going to get very close and might even get the cigar.

I think you must be thinking of yet another sister - Treponema Pallidum Rees-Mogg.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Have you ever considered you might be wrong?

I have, I have thought may be Leaving won't be so bad. I'm come to the conclusion that it will be but I really get the feeling that Leavers have not ONCE thought that maybe they are wrong and that this is a huge **** up led by some extremely shady people attempting to destroy institutions that stop them carrying out their and their mates' bidding.

What makes you think You're so right ? You'll never know one way of the other until we LEAVE # Believe in Britain
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

The penultimate paragraph here is key. How can a government made up of mps to do what is best for their constituents do something that they know will make people worse off? People voted for any number of reasons to leave and remain but once the facts start becoming clearer then politicians have to do what is right by the people. If I was given the option of cutting off two fingers or cutting off my hand I would ask if there was a third option of just leaving things as they are. The problems facing mps now is that they have realised that once the surface has been scratched it is obvious that things will get worse. When boris says “we swill still have water” and farage says “we survived the war” then that feels very different to the sunlit uplands we were promised.

The lurch to no deal which NO ONE voted for because no one had even mentioned the possibility is akin to a 52% remain leading to us scrapping parliament and joining the euro.

Now that at least some facts are known then I can’t see how an mp will be able to look themselves in the mirror if they support something that they know will hurt their constituents. It is incredibly tricky for them but the argument that some make that a democratic vote would be the end of democracy is silly. I am with Jacob Reece mogg on this when he said years ago that after a vote the final decision should go back to the public for agreement.

What are these facts you speak of
regards
DR

 

[CHAPPERS]

What makes you think You're so right ? You'll never know one way of the other until we LEAVE # Believe in Britain
regards
DR

Care to answer the question?

I think I'm right because I looked at who is pushing for No Deal and what I think their motivations then tried to find anyone sensible who thinks No Deal is a positive, and failed.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Care to answer the question?

I think I'm right because I looked at who is pushing for No Deal and what I think their motivations then tried to find anyone sensible who thinks No Deal is a positive, and failed.

Short term issues for long term gains , the EU are a failing body # Believe in Britain
regards
DR

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Really? Did you miss cabinet members voting against her various utterings?

So if the Head of the government's voice isn't the official voice of the government whose do you suggest is ? Some faceless, nameless 'spokesperson' ?

 

[Pretty Plnk Fairy]

Care to answer the question?

I think I'm right because I looked at who is pushing for No Deal and what I think their motivations then tried to find anyone sensible who thinks No Deal is a positive, and failed.

You just need to belief in Britain. We invented the tin can and Cheddar Cheese before the EU so we can do it agane.

Regards
DR

 

[WATFORD zero]

I voted remain before and I would vote remain again if there was another vote, but I don't think there should be one. All the stuff about the 2016 vote being 'advisory' is a smokesreen, people voted on the basis that the government would accede to a majority decision, and therefore that should be the case.

If another vote did take place then even if there was a swing towards remain at most it would be something like 53-47, which is not a significant mandate and would leave more people being disenfranchised than there are at present. Even so there's a fair chance that the next vote would still be to leave the EU, the margins are too tight to call.

The attitude taken by many remain supporters towards those that voted leave has contributed towards leavers doubling down in their position and if I'd voted leave I suspect I would have done the same.

Leave voters are not all racists (although all racists did vote leave), they are not all stupid. Remain voters constantly pecking at them in respect of the economic costs of Brexit is irrelevant as Leavers didn't vote for Brexit because of its impact on GDP. Equally a bit more thought from Leavers in terms of the impact that Brexit has upon Northern Ireland, supply chains and those industries that benefit from EU wide grants and funds would make sense too, as industries such as mine have been significantly hit by the vote in terms of exports and employment.

The EU is bureaucratic, costly and has systemic weaknesses that allow corruption and patronage, all valid criticisms. The economic benefits of a single market, protection of worker and consumer rights and freedom of movement for me outweigh those costs, but if something thinks the opposite their viewpoint and vote should be respected.

What has happened since the vote has been an embarrassment on both sides, culminating with the "oh aren't we so smug Bollocks to Brexit" T shirts being worn by the Lib Dems and the ignorant childishness of the Brexit party turning their backs last week.

What should be done now is politicians acting in an adult manner to negotiate a deal that will minimise the economic damage of Brexit, especially the lunacy of a no deal one. It's better to lose two fingers than a whole hand and that should be the aim. We've had a decade of low growth due to the destruction of the global economy due to the activities of bankers, accountants and lawyers, we should now do our best to negotiate a relationship with the EU that allows for trade, co-operation and peaceful coexistence.

What we are seeing instead is self serving and manipulative politicians telling whatever lies they think will most impress a small section of society to increase their power base, and that is irresponsible and unforgiveable...but representative of the times we live in.

I agree with most of what you say about the situation we find ourselves in, but not with the conclusion that we should therefor lose two fingers rather than a whole hand. Who, in their right mind would cut off their own fingers claiming it's for the best, when they have an option not to ?

That negotiated 'relationship' with the EU that you want has been there all along. It is basically TM's deal staying in the Customs Union and resolving the NI border issue. However, there are a significant numbers of people on NSC and elsewhere who constantly claim that this is not Brexit.

There are, and have always been three options.

1. Deal with Customs Union (your two fingers )
2. No deal
3. Withdraw Article 50.

Any 'negotiation' is going to basically be one of these and the last 3 years of negotiation hasn't changed any of these options to any significant extent. That's because there aren't any other options, and never were. The negotiations are finished, the EU has split up the team and gone home, the deal is there.

So, as a country, we still have to face the fact that there are only 3 options and, if we are to move forward at all, we have to decide which of these three we want. I can only think of one way of democratically finding out what the people want .

(And, just in case someone thinks 3 options into one vote won't go, i will repeat again https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?368879-1st-2nd-choice-Referendum-Poll&highlight=Triggaaar)

If the vote is 'No deal' fine, we can then build the customs posts, lorry parks, infrastructure and systems and recruit and train the staff to do it properly rather than 'pretend' that this time we REALLY REALLY mean it, and get people all excited at the prospect of 'no deal', only to let them down yet again.

And the people get what the people want and deserve

 

[Uh_huh_him]

I voted remain before and I would vote remain again if there was another vote, but I don't think there should be one. All the stuff about the 2016 vote being 'advisory' is a smokesreen, people voted on the basis that the government would accede to a majority decision, and therefore that should be the case.

If another vote did take place then even if there was a swing towards remain at most it would be something like 53-47, which is not a significant mandate and would leave more people being disenfranchised than there are at present. Even so there's a fair chance that the next vote would still be to leave the EU, the margins are too tight to call.

The attitude taken by many remain supporters towards those that voted leave has contributed towards leavers doubling down in their position and if I'd voted leave I suspect I would have done the same.

Leave voters are not all racists (although all racists did vote leave), they are not all stupid. Remain voters constantly pecking at them in respect of the economic costs of Brexit is irrelevant as Leavers didn't vote for Brexit because of its impact on GDP. Equally a bit more thought from Leavers in terms of the impact that Brexit has upon Northern Ireland, supply chains and those industries that benefit from EU wide grants and funds would make sense too, as industries such as mine have been significantly hit by the vote in terms of exports and employment.

The EU is bureaucratic, costly and has systemic weaknesses that allow corruption and patronage, all valid criticisms. The economic benefits of a single market, protection of worker and consumer rights and freedom of movement for me outweigh those costs, but if something thinks the opposite their viewpoint and vote should be respected.

What has happened since the vote has been an embarrassment on both sides, culminating with the "oh aren't we so smug Bollocks to Brexit" T shirts being worn by the Lib Dems and the ignorant childishness of the Brexit party turning their backs last week.

What should be done now is politicians acting in an adult manner to negotiate a deal that will minimise the economic damage of Brexit, especially the lunacy of a no deal one. It's better to lose two fingers than a whole hand and that should be the aim. We've had a decade of low growth due to the destruction of the global economy due to the activities of bankers, accountants and lawyers, we should now do our best to negotiate a relationship with the EU that allows for trade, co-operation and peaceful coexistence.

What we are seeing instead is self serving and manipulative politicians telling whatever lies they think will most impress a small section of society to increase their power base, and that is irresponsible and unforgiveable...but representative of the times we live in.

This!

Great post.

 

[pb21]

What should be done now is politicians acting in an adult manner to negotiate a deal that will minimise the economic damage of Brexit, especially the lunacy of a no deal one. It's better to lose two fingers than a whole hand and that should be the aim. We've had a decade of low growth due to the destruction of the global economy due to the activities of bankers, accountants and lawyers, we should now do our best to negotiate a relationship with the EU that allows for trade, co-operation and peaceful coexistence.

What we are seeing instead is self serving and manipulative politicians telling whatever lies they think will most impress a small section of society to increase their power base, and that is irresponsible and unforgiveable...but representative of the times we live in.

What you are assuming here is that MPs and people generally (i.e. society) are going to behave in a rational and pragmatic way, as they normally would, more or less.

The trouble is what is happening is, IMO, far from rational or pragmatic. Arguably society is currently going through a period of psychosis, and on that basis, things are not going to end well.

It's a cliche that has been said before many times before, but I think 'we' are going through a process of cutting the nose to spite the face, and furthermore this is being done knowingly and gladly.

 

[Gwylan]

It's a cliche that has been said before many times before, but I think 'we' are going through a process of cutting the nose to spite the face, and furthermore this is being done knowingly and gladly.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." HL Mencken

He also predicted the problems of Brexit. "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

And, while we're on the subject of Mencken, he was a prophet well beyond his years, when he wrote (in 1920) "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So if the Head of the government's voice isn't the official voice of the government whose do you suggest is ? Some faceless, nameless 'spokesperson' ?

I have no idea who was, or is, leading the government.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You just need to belief in Britain. We invented the tin can and Cheddar Cheese before the EU so we can do it agane.

Regards
DR

And Vimto. No one can ever take this away from Britain.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I think you must be thinking of yet another sister - Treponema Pallidum Rees-Mogg.

I think it's a physical impossibility to keep up with how many siblings and children Mr Rees-Mogg has. I think he might struggle too. It must be a nightmare at Christmas.I can just imagine it - He'll have done all his Saturday morning chores, got a pass from the wife so long as he's back by 6, then he'll get the bus to Bristol to do his Christmas shopping. There, he'll probably traipse round Debenhams, M&S, waste half an hour queuing in Argos, spend a fortune in Boot's and then have to finish up in Superdrug because Boot's had sold out of the hairdryer that he promised little Mary. Then, just before he treats himself to a well earned pint, he'll be walking past Poundstretcher and he'll notice these adorable baubles and think 'OMG I'm having them!' because Mrs Rees-Mogg will never believe how cheap they were and she'll tell them they're 'Actually totes amaze!' Then, and I can just imagine this, he'll go and have his pint and having put the £1.51 change in his pocket, he'll be stood there with all the shopping bags at his feet in a quiet corner watching Final Score with the sound down in Wetherspoon's, and it'll be then that he'll suddenly remember and say to himself - 'You utter ****! You've forgotten Treponema!'

He'll have to neck his pint and probably leg it to Sports Direct and just get her a gift voucher and a Reebok hoodie or something (A nice warm girlie pink one for wearing round the flat, always useful and she'll like it as it's the thought that counts)

 

[El Presidente]

I think it's a physical impossibility to keep up with how many siblings and children Mr Rees-Mogg has.

I think Boris Johnson has a similar problem with the number of children he has fathered, but for slightly different reasons.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

I think it's a physical impossibility to keep up with how many siblings and children Mr Rees-Mogg has. I think he might struggle too. It must be a nightmare at Christmas.I can just imagine it - He'll have done on his Saturday morning chores, got a pass from the wife so long as he's back by 6, then he'll get the bus to Bristol to do his Christmas shopping. There, he'll traipse round Debenhams, M&S, waste half an hour queuing in Argos, spend a fortune in Boot's and then have to finish up in Superdrug because Boot's had sold out of the hairdryer that he promised little Mary. Then, just before he treats himself to a well earned pint, he'll be walking past Poundstretcher and he'll notice these adorable baubles and think 'OMG I'm having them!' because Mrs Rees-Mogg will never believe how cheap they were and she'll tell them they're 'Actually totes amaze!' Then, and I can just imagine this, he'll go and have his pint and having put the £1.51 change in his pocket, he'll be stood there with all the shopping bags at his feet in a quiet corner watching Final Score with the sound down in Wetherspoon's, and it'll be then that he'll suddenly remember and say to himself - 'You utter ****! You've forgotten Treponema!'

He'll have to neck his pint and probably leg it to Sports Direct and just get her a gift voucher and a Reebok hoodie or something (A nice warm girlie pink one for wearing round the flat, always useful and she'll like it as it's the thought that counts)

How characteristically thoughtful of you to remember the less fortunate in our community at a time like Christmas. Should you wish to start a fund to help this hapless family, I'll chip in a tenner, no prob.


BTW 'Treponema Pallidum' really IS the Latin for the pox, as per your previous posting!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treponema_pallidum

 

[Thunder Bolt]

What makes you think You're so right ? You'll never know one way of the other until we LEAVE # Believe in Britain

Britain doesn't believe in Britain. The Scots certainly don't and we're selling the Northern Irish down the river. Even the Welsh are waking up to it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Really? Did you miss cabinet members voting against her various utterings?

More Cabinet Ministers resigned in the three years of her tenure than any other leader.