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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?


  • Total voters
    1,099


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
20,537
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Perhaps the #teameu crew that often go on about the importance of being in the 'worlds largest trade block' with all those wonderful trade deals could explain why over the last decade being in the EU has produced an average 0.7 GDP growth (0.4 in the Eurozone) for it's members whereas major advanced G7 nations have seen 1.0% growth, advanced economies excluding G7 and Eurozone have seen 2.4 growth, other regions and trade blocks also seeing much higher GDP growth .....

https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/economic-dataworlds-gdp-growth-by-region

Shirley such a powerhouse economic block with major negotiating clout should be leading the way ....

Two distinct reasons for this IMHO.

1. The EU is (almost entirely) formed of established economies (bar a few in the former Soviet bloc), and established economies, by definition, do not grow quickly because they're already big. By contrast, most other trading blocs included a lot of less developed countries, the former TPP containing a number of economies in south east Asia which have experienced phenomenal growth in recent years as they are starting from a lower base, meaning the average growth across the bloc would be higher as a result. Meanwhile many of the real basket-case economies of Europe are currently unable to join the EU (despite many of them wanting to) because of threats from Moscow should they choose to do so.

2. The global financial crisis of 2008 disproportionately impacted the countries in the western hemisphere, especially ones which rely heavily on a services industry such as the UK, France, Germany, the US and the Benelux countries rather than raw materials. As the major financial centres of the EU this had a net negative effect on the performance of the entire bloc when you take into account the average of all the relevant members, whereas a nation such as China or Brazil did well out of it as companies sought safer havens and those where land value and housing were less expensive became more attractive.
 




JCL666

absurdism
Sep 23, 2011
2,190
When I have tried to debate with any of your ilk,the abuse just wears you down,just like kids in the schoolyard.Do you lot learn it at momentum skool?You are all totally incapable of coping with the real world,and think if you stick your fingers in your ears and shout 'Its all because of Brexit',that will make it better.FFS wake up and get a grip!:thumbsup:

But you don't debate. You just post rants, usually littered with generalisations (as the post I've quoted is).

The sad thing is that your grip on reality is tenuous at best, your jokes simply aren't funny and to put it very directly you come across as a complete prick.
 


Garry Nelson's teacher

Well-known member
May 11, 2015
5,257
Bloody Worthing!
Perhaps the #teameu crew that often go on about the importance of being in the 'worlds largest trade block' with all those wonderful trade deals could explain why over the last decade being in the EU has produced an average 0.7 GDP growth (0.4 in the Eurozone) for it's members whereas major advanced G7 nations have seen 1.0% growth, advanced economies excluding G7 and Eurozone have seen 2.4 growth, other regions and trade blocks also seeing much higher GDP growth .....

https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/economic-dataworlds-gdp-growth-by-region

Shirley such a powerhouse economic block with major negotiating clout should be leading the way ....

This is a very reasonable question. I won't in any way dispute the figures; neither will I claim my response couldn't be improved by those who are better informed. So let's agree that the EU growth rates are poor/disappointing/sub-optimal. Why?

Firstly the EU is not blessed with the natural resources of say Canada and Australia.

There is an ageing population.

The level of social protection is higher than in most other nations. Some would argue that this puts a brake on economic growth.

The EU economies are 'mature' - countries starting from a low base will have natural 'catch-up' propensity in a globalised economy.

The EU was disproportionately impacted by the global financial crisis.

Fundamentally what matters is whether the collection of countries (economies) in the EU would have fared better out of it in that time period. And even more specifically whether the UK will do so in the future. You (we) need to remember that trade deals with faster growing non-EU countries have been negotiated by and through the EU. So in many ways the choice being offered to the British people of EU v the fast growing world economy is a false one.


Finally, it could be argued that one of the things that has held up economic growth in the EU has been the lack of full(er) integration...……….as unpalatable as that might seem to many.


But your post did raise the debate higher than the contribution on the fertility (or lack thereof) of our Prime Minister and the extent of French girls' body odour so thanks for that.
 


The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
26,182
West is BEST
Don't be more of a drama queen than you usually are.Ford employees,including one of my brothers-in-law who worked at Ford's Leamington plant,have been living with redundancy on their shoulders since the 1980's.

Then you’re even more callous than I first thought.
 


ManOfSussex

We wunt be druv
Apr 11, 2016
15,168
Rape of Hastings, Sussex
The key to independence in any nation is their currency, and the Nationalist movement in Scotland will always struggle to convey a vision of independence without their own currency.

To some people it may be seen like that Fergie, but the emotive issue of independence from what is ultimately seen as English subjugation by many will far outweigh the economic or technical arguments for a lot of people, whatever is argued for or against and whatever the economic cost may be. If there is one, then to borrow a phrase from a fellow Brexiteer of yours - it's a price worth paying.

In the case of Scotland, whatever the informed arguments are, whatever the cost is, whatever the currency is and whatever the actual question is on the IndyRef2 ballot paper, it will ultimately just boil down to this for many:

Do you hate the English enough to want Scotland to become an independent country?/Dae ye hate th' sassenach enough tae waant scootlund tae become an braveheart land?

Yes/Aye
No/Na

As much as it'll genuinely sadden me, I can't blame them at all if they do decide to go it alone after what's happened to The UK in the last few years. It should take care of Trident renewal as well if they do with Faslane and Coulport being in Scotland. That'll save some money and complete our fall from grace as a country quite spectacularly as we lose our nuclear deterrent too. Lets fund our NHS instead perhaps with the savings?
 
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Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
I can honestly say I have never seen try to debate sensibly on this thread. Ever.

Out of recent ones,I think when I tried to introduce the concept of bi-lateral deals between member states and GB,you were part of the crew that jumped all over it,so debate with the groovy gang is impossible.Agreement or abuse,'No room for democracy or debate about the EU and it's rules'as one of plutocrats recently said.
 


Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
But you don't debate. You just post rants, usually littered with generalisations (as the post I've quoted is).

The sad thing is that your grip on reality is tenuous at best, your jokes simply aren't funny and to put it very directly you come across as a complete prick.

Nice of you to join in.I must have learned everything from you,and your other self,as both of you definitely make a complete one.
 






Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,952
Surrey
Out of recent ones,I think when I tried to introduce the concept of bi-lateral deals between member states and GB,you were part of the crew that jumped all over it,so debate with the groovy gang is impossible.Agreement or abuse,'No room for democracy or debate about the EU and it's rules'as one of plutocrats recently said.

When you say "jumped all over it", you mean "debunked it comprehensively". Or are you seriously expecting people to just accept whatever you write, even if that amounts to - in other people's eyes - unadulterated shit? That is debate. But then rather than back up your ill-considered points with coherent argument, you without fail revert to type as per [MENTION=21731]JCL666[/MENTION]'s post. That's just what you do, again and again.
 






Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
More good news.Inflation at a new low,wages rising,strikes low,we can still fly everywhere (apart from Belgium,they're on strike).
 


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,952
Surrey
More good news.Inflation at a new low,wages rising,strikes low,we can still fly everywhere (apart from Belgium,they're on strike).

1) Do you think low inflation is down to a shrewdly managed economy, or just a symptom of stagnant growth?
2) Odd comment on flying. We're still in the EU aren't we? Is this really you trying your best not to come across as a moron?
 


Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,827
Uffern
To some people it may be seen like that Fergie, but the emotive issue of independence from what is ultimately seen as English subjugation by many will far outweigh the economic or technical arguments for a lot of people, whatever is argued for or against and whatever the economic cost may be. If there is one, then to borrow a phrase from a fellow Brexiteer of yours - it's a price worth paying.

In the case of Scotland, whatever the informed arguments are, whatever the cost is, whatever the currency is and whatever the actual question is on the IndyRef2 ballot paper, it will ultimately just boil down to this for many:

It's a strange argument from a Brexiteer. Pretty much every one I've seen says that attaining independence was worth an economic hit (that was certainly my view when I voted, what I didn't expect was the complete botch job that the government made of negotiations), so I'm not sure why different criteria should apply to Scotland.

If you're pro-Brexit, then you really should be pro-Scottish independence - there's little difference
 




El Presidente

The ONLY Gay in Brighton
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
40,000
Pattknull med Haksprut
It's a strange argument from a Brexiteer. Pretty much every one I've seen says that attaining independence was worth an economic hit (that was certainly my view when I voted, what I didn't expect was the complete botch job that the government made of negotiations), so I'm not sure why different criteria should apply to Scotland.

If you're pro-Brexit, then you really should be pro-Scottish independence - there's little difference

You're argument is the most valid one. The overwhelming evidence is that Brexit will result in lower economic growth than would have been the case had the UK remained in the EU. Ath the same time there are many sectors of society who feel they have not benefitted from growth historically because its rewards have been concentrated in the hands of the few, (large multinational corporations and those who are receive bonuses, share options and private health schemes etc from them) so the benefits of Brexit as perceived by such voters (less migration, more localised decision making, greater indenpendence) exceed the economic hit that will occur in the UK as they wouldn't benefit from such growth directly anyway.
 
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WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
27,766
Out of recent ones,I think when I tried to introduce the concept of bi-lateral deals between member states and GB,you were part of the crew that jumped all over it,so debate with the groovy gang is impossible.Agreement or abuse,'No room for democracy or debate about the EU and it's rules'as one of plutocrats recently said.

That will be this one then

If the EU says no in October,that leaves 6 months to tie up the important ones we have already done the groundwork for like Canada,USA,Australia,New Zealand,China,South Korea,Singapore,Saudi Arabia,South Africa,Russia-lots of countries out there.Then if France and Germany want deals after we leave,that would be ok,but the rest of the EU not worth bothering about too much.

6 months?? Good luck. You really are in cloud cuckoo land.
If France and Germany want deals?? WTF is wrong with you. We will be paying the highest WTO tariffs. Who is going to be desperate to make deals? UK or France and Germany ffs.
Again, we would be paying the highest level of WTO tariffs making our products more expensive than anybody else.
Tell me about all this 'groundwork' thats already been done.

I think this post highlights in every way the delusion hard brexiteers have of a no deal.

The fact that we cannot enter trade negotiations until we leave the EU. That even if we wanted to do some kind of scoping negotiations, there is a big question mark over whether the Civil Service has the numbers of staff or skills to do this. No chance in completing in 6 months. Plus, of course 2P offers no evidence that these deals are being worked on.

As usual with brexiteers, no real answers, just live in hope that something will turn up.

The very real danger is that if we leave without a deal, nothing turns up and the Country suffers. Not the Farage, Johnsons, Rees Mogg who are wealthy enough to withstand any economic shock, but those that suffer will be those who can least afford it.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

You can't just do deals with France and Germany. Who doesn't understand the Single Market? Who is the thicky here? And I'm a leaver.

If we are not in the Single Market,we can make deals with anybody.How do you think France and Germany do deals with other countries?Do they ask the rest of the EU before they sell anything?

You have genuinely surprised me. You are actually even more stupid than I thought you were.

And trust me, that is a very low bar you've just ducked :lolol:

They negotiate their trade deals as a block. We have to have a trade agreement with the EU in order to trade with France and Germany. No trade agreement, no trade. So effectively, yes they do ask the rest of the EU before they sell anything.

We could operate under WTO but I've yet to hear anyone, who actually trades, say anything good about that idea.

where you 'introduced a concept' that was fundamentally flawed, impossible and when people pointed out some fairly basic 'facts' about the EU you disappeared off the thread for a while ???
 


Rugrat

Well-known member
Mar 13, 2011
10,224
Seaford
From the Beeb ... The UK has signed "continuity agreements", which mean there will be no disruption to trade, with Switzerland, Chile, The Faroe Islands and Eastern and Southern Africa.

Thank goodness ... no disruption to cheese with holes in it, cheap s**t wine and herring.
 


nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
18,574
Gods country fortnightly
that will be this one then















where you 'introduced a concept' that was fundamentally flawed, impossible and when people pointed out some fairly basic 'facts' about the eu you disappeared off the thread for a while ???

nsc gold
 




lawros left foot

Glory hunting since 1969
NSC Patron
Jun 11, 2011
14,071
Worthing
From the Beeb ... The UK has signed "continuity agreements", which mean there will be no disruption to trade, with Switzerland, Chile, The Faroe Islands and Eastern and Southern Africa.

Thank goodness ... no disruption to cheese with holes in it, cheap s**t wine and herring.


Hurrah!!!!
Whale blubber and Toblerones all round.
 




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