[Politics] Brexit

[WATFORD zero]

Why would anyone listen to a former Brexit secretary who now pushes no deal? It's clear that's what he wanted all along and took the job trying (or not) to negotiate a deal.

****ing Tories.

That'll be the former Brexit secretary who resigned in protest at the deal that he negotiated

 

[neilbard]

I wouldn't bet on it. There are two things to remember about the current upper echelons of politics;

1. Nobody has any shame anymore
2. The one consistent thing about Theresa May's entire career is she will do literally anything to save her own skin at any cost

Unfortunately, I think you're right.

May is untouchable at the moment, nobody in her party wants this gig and the opposition certainly don't want it.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Actually, you need to do some research and you’ll discover many areas of the NHS are privatised.

Really ? Which parts have been sold off to private companies then ? Too many people confused the words 'privatisation' and 'outsourcing'. The former means selling the service off to private ownership - Royal Mail, Gas, Electric, BT are good examples. The latter means getting services run by a contractor but still owned by the public body. Mrs W and my Grandmother are both people that have benefited from the NHS outsourcing to ensure a timely treatment. There was still zero cost to either of them ( past the taxes they pay ) and they were treated faster than if they had had to wait for the NHS to carry out the treatment.

I'm not aware any single part of the NHS has been sold - unless of course either yourself or [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION] want to provide some evidence that it really has happened ?

The Virgin example TB has posted ISN'T privatisation - it was outsourcing. Now the discussion around if outsourcing is money well spent is an entirely different argument but it sure as hell isn't privatisation.

 

[Baldseagull]

You can vote out a Conservative government if they have policies you don't like.

But you won't have a Conservative government forever.

& You might not have a "friendly" EU Commission forever either.

But most people voted for a party other than the Conservatives, and we have a Conservative government, not very democratic that is it?

 

[The Clamp]

Really ? Which parts have been sold off to private companies then ? Too many people confused the words 'privatisation' and 'outsourcing'. The former means selling the service off to private ownership - Royal Mail, Gas, Electric, BT are good examples. The latter means getting services run by a contractor but still owned by the public body. Mrs W and my Grandmother are both people that have benefited from the NHS outsourcing to ensure a timely treatment. There was still zero cost to either of them ( past the taxes they pay ) and they were treated faster than if they had had to wait for the NHS to carry out the treatment.

I'm not aware any single part of the NHS has been sold - unless of course either yourself or [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION] want to provide some evidence that it really has happened ?

The Virgin example TB has posted ISN'T privatisation - it was outsourcing. Now the discussion around if outsourcing is money well spent is an entirely different argument but it sure as hell isn't privatisation.

Outsourcing to private companies is privatisation. You need to get a clue.

Here’s a starter for you.
http://www.patients4nhs.org.uk/how-is-the-nhs-being-privatised/

Really. Read it and weep.

 

[Baldseagull]

Really ? Which parts have been sold off to private companies then ? Too many people confused the words 'privatisation' and 'outsourcing'. The former means selling the service off to private ownership - Royal Mail, Gas, Electric, BT are good examples. The latter means getting services run by a contractor but still owned by the public body. Mrs W and my Grandmother are both people that have benefited from the NHS outsourcing to ensure a timely treatment. There was still zero cost to either of them ( past the taxes they pay ) and they were treated faster than if they had had to wait for the NHS to carry out the treatment.

I'm not aware any single part of the NHS has been sold - unless of course either yourself or [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION] want to provide some evidence that it really has happened ?

The Virgin example TB has posted ISN'T privatisation - it was outsourcing. Now the discussion around if outsourcing is money well spent is an entirely different argument but it sure as hell isn't privatisation.

So if there were only Private providers and the NHS was just involved in paying the provider, you would not consider that a privatisation of the Health Service?

 

[CHAPPERS]

Speaker doesn't pick the Govts preferred amendments. Good.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Outsourcing to private companies is privatisation. You need to get a clue.

No it isn't. I've already explained the difference so you're just ignoring facts.

Let's use the example you posted about your Stepbrother. The NHS trust purchases the cleaning service from a private contractor BUT they still own the service. They can cease the contract if the contractor fails to meet KPIs and they can decide at the end of the contract to either sign another contract or bring the service back in house - if the service had been privatised - i.e. SOLD - they couldn't make those choices.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So if there were only Private providers and the NHS was just involved in paying the provider, you would not consider that a privatisation of the Health Service?

Not if it was provided using tax/NI, the services and assets are still under the ownership of the NHS and services are still free at the point of delivery - no.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Speaker doesn't pick the Govts preferred amendments. Good.

Indeed. Bercow is the one stand-out protector of 'parliamentary sovereignty' through this entire sorry charade. He should be a hero of all those who claimed that is what they voted for.

Instead we'll have another day of dangerous and disgusting 'Speaker of the Devil' / 'Enemy of the people' front pages.

 

[nicko31]

Finally after 2 years Moggy rang James O'brien on LBC

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-obrien-destroys-jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-vote/

Why did he mention Patrick Minford?

Pity they didn't carry on when to Jacob spoke about how many he was looking to tasting Ozzie hormone beef and destroying British farming...

Also Jacob's folly of WTO completely exposed bare....

 

[A1X]

Speaker doesn't pick the Govts preferred amendments. Good.

It basically seems he's not picked anything which would in any way confuse matters or which have much of a hope of passing, meaning the vote will be on the deal as it stands right now. A sensible option all round, the arguments about what to do next start at 9pm this evening.

 

[The Clamp]

No it isn't. I've already explained the difference so you're just ignoring facts.

Let's use the example you posted about your Stepbrother. The NHS trust purchases the cleaning service from a private contractor BUT they still own the service. They can cease the contract if the contractor fails to meet KPIs and they can decide at the end of the contract to either sign another contract or bring the service back in house - if the service had been privatised - i.e. SOLD - they couldn't make those choices.

Read the link I posted. You need to be less ignorant.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

I am 70 year old who voted Remain but these are the official figures

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

Second world war veterans
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eterans-come-out-against-brexit-a7019646.html

Mainly youngsters voted remain, why?

Inexperience in life, when they get into their mid 30s they may just realise that life experience really helps in such a key matter.

Can anyone really say they were wiser between the ages of 18-24 that they are now?

They need to serve an apprenticeship in life before they can vote in a landmark referendum IMO, sounds harsh I know, but true.

If you stick a tadpole in boiling hot water he is clueless and dies, if you stick a frog in hot water he jumps.

 

[dingodan]

On the contrary. All solid evidence indicates that the EU want us to stay and will be welcoming if we do. They even went as far as ruling in December that we can reverse Brexit.
All indications are we would be welcomed back and the silly nonsense forgotten with no punitive conditions.

No, that's not the point I was making.

If you think that we have an EU Commission today which you agree with, and we have a Government today that you hate, that may be true.

Tomorrow we may have your ideal UK Government (let's say a liberal, left leaning Government), with policies of which you approve. & Tomorrow we may have a European Commission comprised of "swivel eyed loons" (let's say an ultra Conservative, right wing Commission), with policies you despise.

Your view that the EU Commission is on "your side" and the UK Government is not on your side is short sighted, it's based on current and inherently temporary conditions. But our ability (or not) to change law makers (be they good or bad) is permanent.

If we stay in the EU then, today, the Conservative government you hate will be disempowered and will have their hands tied, and the EU Commission will be the ultimate law maker - a state of affairs which might seem appealing - today. But tomorrow the Liberal government which you will want empowered won't be, and the EU Commission which you hate will be the ultimate law maker. A state of affairs from which there will be no escape.

I'm not saying that you should be for the principle of UK democracy because you should be in favor of today's government. I'm saying that you should be for it because you should be in favor of the principle of self government itself. That is ultimately what this is about.

 

[fanseagull]

Mainly youngsters voted remain, why?

Inexperience in life, when they get into their mid 30s they may just realise that life experience really helps in such a key matter.

Can anyone really say they were wiser between the ages of 18-24 that they are now?

They need to serve an apprenticeship in life before they can vote in a landmark referendum IMO, sounds harsh I know, but true.

If you stick a tadpole in boiling hot water he is clueless and dies, if you stick a frog in hot water he jumps.

Another breezy, good humoured dismissal.... welcome back!
I suspect though that there may be more profound reasons...... concern over job loss from looming Brexit maybe?
Are you retired, in secure employment or is your job security under threat?

 

[CHAPPERS]

They voted remain because they are losing rights of freedom of movement to 27 countries.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Imagine all the 16 year olds who couln't vote in the referendum who are now of voting age, but they won't get a say even though we have not reached a decision on how we are leaving the EU. It's an absolute shitter for them.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Imagine all the 16 year olds who couln't vote in the referendum who are now of voting age, but they won't get a say even though we have not reached a decision on how we are leaving the EU. It's an absolute shitter for them.

Are they aware of the facts, for both sides?

If there IS another vote, I think it should be redone every six months to allow any poor souls missing out due to age, the chance to have their say.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Imagine all the 16 year olds who couln't vote in the referendum who are now of voting age, but they won't get a say even though we have not reached a decision on how we are leaving the EU. It's an absolute shitter for them.

I’m remain, but this is massively flawed

When does it stop?

They were not old enough to vote and it’s a shame for them, but that’s the current rules.