[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

Well Turkey is not a member, but took jobs that were being carried out in the EU for decades. The old transit adverts used to say Southampton, home of the Transit......not any more.

The truth is that broadly speaking jobs are no safer in the EU than out.....those Ford jobs lost in the UK could have gone anywhere thatcwas cheaper. Spain is a good example where post 2008 crisis plants were down to a single shift, and workers pay was cut 40%. Within 12-18 months the plants were running at full capacitty and othe European plants i(France in particular) were vlosing shifts.

My position is simple, the EU as an institution is a rapacously capitalist, its hand maidrns care about profit, not workers.

I think you and I see different solutions to some of the same problems. I think greater harmonisation of employment rights, wages, conditions, tax rates etc. will prevent large corporations from dividing and conquering the workers in Europe, and for that we need the EU and for it to have more powers over tax rates.
The answer is more EU not less EU. look at the people at the forefront of leaving, these are not socialists, they want to strip workers rights and reduce corporate taxes. I think your heart is in the right place mate, but your head is not.

 

[cunning fergus]

We'll have our 0.37% contribution back fully in a decade or so,Britain will be deeply enriched. Keep believing all the propaganda by thrown out by your offshore heroes from the island of Sark

Hardly, we are due 28% of the loan to asset value.......approx. £40bn, or approx. £770m a week to the NHS.......woohoo!

 

[Pavilionaire]

Lets not drag the dabate in the gutter, i am perilously close to a permanent ban so lets behave ourselves.

To an overwhelming extent i see the EU as a Tory inspired project snd its suppotters as tories. It was Ted Heath that took us in the EEC (by 6 votes) and Thatcher that campaignef to keep us in during the Ref in 75. All that time the Labour party were opposed to our membership and for good reason. That is historical fact, as is Blairs shameful tinkering with the Labour constitution to facilitate a more business orientated Labour Party that would embrace markets instead of regulating them.

You said people had no appetite for Corbyn’s socialism, but i disagree, in particular with regard to the nationalisation of rail, utilities etc. Those policies would be popular.

I dont think Corbyn is currently the answer though, he is a busted flush with some of his past eccentricities, however that does not mean he is wrong on everything. As a old school socialist he cannot be anything but opposed to the EU with its bias towards globsl corporatism. With a following like he has i would love him to educate the young about what the EU is, and why his forebears were opposed to it, because all their fears expressed in the 70s and 80s have materislised.

There, not much to ask for....

What drives people is peace and prosperity. The integration of the former Iron Curtain countries into 'The West', the arrival of the internet, improved automation of production, the expansion of budget airlines have all contributed to an increase in the size of the marketplace for our goods and services.

This is not "Tory" ideology, this is technology and pan-European political will. Regardless of who is in power these forces will always be at work. Corbyn's failure to recognise the EU as a force for good in a changing world is a catastrophe for both the Labour Party and the UK.

 

[cunning fergus]

I think you and I see different solutions to some of the same problems. I think greater harmonisation of employment rights, wages, conditions, tax rates etc. will prevent large corporations from dividing and conquering the workers in Europe, and for that we need the EU and for it to have more powers over tax rates.
The answer is more EU not less EU. look at the people at the forefront of leaving, these are not socialists, they want to strip workers rights and reduce corporate taxes. I think your heart is in the right place mate, but your head is not.

My view on the EU is based on what I see and what I know.

There are 5 presidents connected to the institution and I don’t vote one in, this makes key decisions more remote from the electorate, and why subordinate institutions like the EU commission conduct trade deals. TTIP as it was would have opened up the NHS to privatisation, no one had an inkling about that in the U.K. because it was not being discussed in parliament.

The people running the EU are not trade unionists or socialists, they are tories. At the top end you have the likes of Juncker who oversaw the brass plating practice of global business to offshore its taxes when he was president of Luxembourg. If you think he snd his ilk is on the side of the workers it is you who are not using your head.

https://amp.theguardian.com/busines...blocked-eu-curbs-on-tax-avoidance-cables-show

Don’t even start me on Peter Mandelson.

 

[Gwylan]

My view on the EU is based on what I see and what I know.

There are 5 presidents connected to the institution and I don’t vote one in, this makes key decisions more remote from the electorate, and why subordinate institutions like the EU commission conduct trade deals. TTIP as it was would have opened up the NHS to privatisation, no one had an inkling about that in the U.K. because it was not being discussed in parliament.

The people running the EU are not trade unionists or socialists, they are tories. At the top end you have the likes of Juncker who oversaw the brass plating practice of global business to offshore its taxes when he was president of Luxembourg. If you think he snd his ilk is on the side of the workers it is you who are not using your head.

https://amp.theguardian.com/busines...blocked-eu-curbs-on-tax-avoidance-cables-show

Don’t even start me on Peter Mandelson.

While I agree with the gist of what you say, I should also point out that the UK has a head of state and a head of government and I had no direct vote for either of them

 

[Westdene Seagull]

While I agree with the gist of what you say, I should also point out that the UK has a head of state and a head of government and I had no direct vote for either of them

Without wishing to sound like a parrot, I agree with the gist of what you say, I should also point out that the UK head of state is political neutral and has no say in the day to day running of the country. I agree on head of government (unless of course you're lucky enough - or unlucky enough depending upon your view - to have said PM as your MP as well. The PM is at least only one step away from some electorate and two steps from most ...... unlike the positions CF mentioned who are many steps away from the electorate.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

So the USA and China, that we hope to get better access to by leaving the EU, that we have full access to, is the shit market causing the problems, and restricting ease of trade with the EU market is going to be just fine?

What a strange set of deductions. Nowhere in my post have I said it indeed alluded to anything other than the fact that the contraction in the car market is largely due to conditions in the USA and China.

I am not interested in predicting the outcome in regard to the EU.

Blaming every economic woe on Brexit is wrong, Greece, Spain, France, Portugal etc have many more problems than we do, perhaps they can conveniently blame Brexit as well.

 

[nicko31]

Hardly, we are due 28% of the loan to asset value.......approx. £40bn, or approx. £770m a week to the NHS.......woohoo!

Can you elaborate on that one? I'm intrigued...

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Watching the Commons debate. Some thawing perhaps towards the May plan but it won't fly and next Tuesday we'll be back to not-quite-square-one. I'm beginning to think that the 'menu offering' (pick and mix) to the House might be the only way forward. Outcome could look something like Norway+. As a Remainer, I'd settle for this (from where we are now). Labour still parading rather too much hurt pride (not sure if it's genuine or tactical) that May didn't reach out to them earlier: on Tuesday we have to re-base and get real or we'll slip off the cliff without realising it...…………….

 

[portslade seagull]

What a strange set of deductions. Nowhere in my post have I said it indeed alluded to anything other than the fact that the contraction in the car market is largely due to conditions in the USA and China.

I am not interested in predicting the outcome in regard to the EU.

Blaming every economic woe on Brexit is wrong, Greece, Spain, France, Portugal etc have many more problems than we do, perhaps they can conveniently blame Brexit as well.

Don't say that cause they will now

 

[fanseagull]

Don't say that cause they will now

.......only economic woes caused by the tory government catastrophuk......

 

[Thunder Bolt]

What a strange set of deductions. Nowhere in my post have I said it indeed alluded to anything other than the fact that the contraction in the car market is largely due to conditions in the USA and China.

I am not interested in predicting the outcome in regard to the EU.

Blaming every economic woe on Brexit is wrong, Greece, Spain, France, Portugal etc have many more problems than we do, perhaps they can conveniently blame Brexit as well.

Portugal has problems but Britain lent them money through the EU. It has been paid back in full and helped them a lot.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Portugal has problems but Britain lent them money through the EU. It has been paid back in full and helped them a lot.

Portugal is an interesting and contradictory example from what I can gather. They have bucked the trend when compared to their peers (Greece, Spain and Italy), but this is at huge expense. Their debt is still astronomical and they have lost hundreds of thousands of their citizens to Germany, France England etc. That last fact has left their unemployment rate attractively low (but not when compared to the UK) but massages the figure at the expense of long-term benefit to their economy. At the risk of sounding pro-EU, but in the interests of fairness, the way that the movement of people from one part of the EU to another is a measure of the success of the single market as it mirrors other large countries economies where people leave their traditional homelands for the lure of better pastures elsewhere.

 

[cjd]

Without wishing to sound like a parrot,.......

Really.......?


I come to look on this thread most days, fearful you may have run out of nuts or seed.

PS; This applies to numerous posters on here on both sides of the divide.

 

[nicko31]

Watching the Commons debate. Some thawing perhaps towards the May plan but it won't fly and next Tuesday we'll be back to not-quite-square-one. I'm beginning to think that the 'menu offering' (pick and mix) to the House might be the only way forward. Outcome could look something like Norway+. As a Remainer, I'd settle for this (from where we are now). Labour still parading rather too much hurt pride (not sure if it's genuine or tactical) that May didn't reach out to them earlier: on Tuesday we have to re-base and get real or we'll slip off the cliff without realising it...…………….

Don't the "+" merely signify that all deficiencies in the Norway deal that will some think will miraculously disappear when we come to negotiate our own version of it

Norway isn't what was voted for, better to have a 2nd referendum, at least people will get the deal they vote for

 

[Thunder Bolt]

All those migrants

[tweet]1083391244032720896[/tweet]

 

[WATFORD zero]

Don't the "+" merely signify that all deficiencies in the Norway deal that will some think will miraculously disappear when we come to negotiate our own version of it

Norway isn't what was voted for, better to have a 2nd referendum, at least people will get the deal they vote for

I think it sums up Brexit perfectly that adding + or +++ will add more votes without any definition whatsoever of what it means

 

[Baldseagull]

What a strange set of deductions. Nowhere in my post have I said it indeed alluded to anything other than the fact that the contraction in the car market is largely due to conditions in the USA and China.

I am not interested in predicting the outcome in regard to the EU.

Blaming every economic woe on Brexit is wrong, Greece, Spain, France, Portugal etc have many more problems than we do, perhaps they can conveniently blame Brexit as well.

I realise your post was in the context of why there are issues at JLR today, but I did not realise you gave no shit about the future, apologies.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Don't the "+" merely signify that all deficiencies in the Norway deal that will some think will miraculously disappear when we come to negotiate our own version of it

Norway isn't what was voted for, better to have a 2nd referendum, at least people will get the deal they vote for

Norway/Iceland is indeed what we voted for as neither are actually in the EU. They are outside it.

The + refers to an agreement to get the best solution to the Irish border.


This proposal is now known as *Common Market 2.0*.


There is a lot of Fake News nonsense about being 'rule takers'. The reality is nothing like that as explained below :

https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1073867169723756544?s=19


There is no point in a 2nd referendum. Until we isolate ourselves from hybrid warfare dis-information attacks on the minds of the British people by malign foreign state actors then we are totally lost, and the result will only be the same.

 

[nicko31]

Norway/Iceland is indeed what we voted for as neither are actually in the EU. They are outside it.

The + refers to an agreement to get the best solution to the Irish border.


This proposal is now known as *Common Market 2.0*.


There is a lot of Fake News nonsense about being 'rule takers'. The reality is nothing like that as explained below :

https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1073867169723756544?s=19


There is no point in a 2nd referendum. Until we isolate ourselves from hybrid warfare dis-information attacks on the minds of the British people by malign foreign state actors then we are totally lost, and the result will only be the same.

What does the "+" in Canada mean, surely nothing to do with the Irish border?