[Politics] Brexit

[Simster]

Well, be fair, based on my ideological political compass if you support privatised industries that should be state industries (like the rail and utilities) then you are a Tory. When Blair removed clause 4 from Labour’s he did so to facilitate and encourage privatisation, it’s why Miliband (as Labour leader) didn’t oppose the privatisation on the Royal Mail. It is therefore entirely logical to align Tory political objectives with some Labour supporters.

These supporters will tend to be cheerleaders for the EU on exactly the same basis as their genuine Tory peers, they support unregulated labour markets, and shill for the interests of global corporatism.

You may be angry but you are not dim........and my proposition that certain pro EU enthusiasts are Tories is quite accurate and certainly not “bollocks” to quote you (apologies to the Mods for swearing I am merely representing the context of the post I am responding to.......I trust this does not merit another ban).

To some extent you are right, although would rather Corbyn faced down the Tories in his midst and then publicly explain why he has been opposed to the EU. It would educate the youth to the underlying bias of the EU to global corporatism........and Toryism.

If you don't like being accused of writing complete bollocks then don't write complete bollocks. It's that simple.

a) According to you, anyone who doesn't agree with you over Brexit is a Tory. That'll be news to the people of Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Finland and Ireland - all of whom have elected left-of-centre governments yet whose electorate don't see the need to quit the EU. There are plenty of good anti-Tory reasons for staying in the EU, but nobody is accusing you of being Jacob Rees-Mogg's patsy are they? Perhaps they should.

b) You've decided the people want a Corbyn socialist government. Apparently, posting a link to a poll that says most people want the railways back in public hands is proof of this. I'm sure the fact that the railways are the most badly mismanaged public service ever put into private hands is nothing to do with this whatsoever, and that this is far more conclusive proof we all want to live under Corbyn's socialism than a mere general election that they lost conclusively barely 20 months ago despite the feeble Tory opposition who didn't even feel the need to campaign properly.

As for Blair, I was no fan of him after Iraq but he did a good job in uniting the fragmented left-of-centre majority in this country. Of course class-warriors like you didn't like it very much because you saw it as some sort of Tory take-over rather than what it actually was. We are currently seeing what happens when Labour move left and away from the centre ground - they only take with them about 50% of the votes they need to secure power. That would be fine in a PR-elected democracy, but with FPTP this lack of pragmatism costs Labour and costs the country. But what I particularly don't like about Corbyn and McDonnell is that they have both spent their entire careers whinging and moaning at the top brass in their own party, but have got all pissy when others inside Labour do the same thing to them. And as much as I always sympathised with the Irish back in the dark days, Corbyn's attitude was shocking. Never forget that he attended a commemoration for IRA members killed by the British army, but was never seen doing the same on the other side. Shameful.

 

[nicko31]

Half a trillion according to the Telegraph ...... great value for money ..... not.

We'll have our 0.37% contribution back fully in a decade or so,Britain will be deeply enriched. Keep believing all the propaganda by thrown out by your offshore heroes from the island of Sark

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Sometimes HT it's better to stop digging when one makes a fool of oneself. So as well as confusing the words extend and withdraw, you have now never heard of the expression "Chin Chin" ...... oh dear - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/chin-chin

It is, but never say chin chin to a Japanese person.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It is, but never say chin chin to a Japanese person.

Intriguing ..... I've got to ask ..... why ?

 

[knocky1]

No. I have never seen that spelling before. I have always assumed it was Italian, like when someone says ciao. I guess I’m far more European minded than most. Every day is a school day.

It is indeed cin cin and Italian for cheers before drinking an alcoholic beverage. It is a ch sound. Never heard the Chinese version before. May have something to do with Marco Polo.
I'm sticking with the modern European spelling.

 

[JCL666]

This thread is sh1t as is Brexit

 

[A1X]

[TWEET]1083290286883782656[/TWEET]

 

[Baldseagull]

The problems for car manufacturers are largely to do with a slowdown in the USA and China. But Brexit is a very convenient way to break bad news. Well done.

So the USA and China, that we hope to get better access to by leaving the EU, that we have full access to, is the shit market causing the problems, and restricting ease of trade with the EU market is going to be just fine?

 

[cunning fergus]

As an aside, when Fergus first raised his tedious Transit van tale it was picked apart and comprehensively dismantled. It’s all in this thread if you can be arsed to scroll back.

He’s got a handful of arguments and insults he endlessly repeats....most of us a just bored by them now.

I have to say that “dismantlement” tale is news to me, the Ford loan to their Turkish plant affair is a classic example of how the EU works in practice and how British politicians have conspired to take a big poo on the working class (i will not be cruder than that save another indefinite ban). It is delicous, over 4,500 jobs lost in UK and Belgium, with Ford being efectively subsidised by the EIB under EU rules, the same rules that would prevent a national government being able to offer a cash rescue package.

https://www.dailysabah.com/business...ut-its-40b-euro-share-in-the-eus-own-bank/amp

Every time we get the pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth about the tragedy of Brexit and how industry will suffer, i will roll this out again. There are other examples too but i know this is your liebling.......

Chin chin.

 

[Baldseagull]

Every time someone is crying about the implications of Brexit on the motor industry I will bring up Ford, EU loans and Turkey.

Thousands of jobs lost by EU citizens.

It’s weird that despite the many times I have raised it you have never opined on the implications of the situation, merely that I raise it. It’s not fake news, it’s not hyperbole it happened, jobs are lost and have been lost while we were in the EU. In the case of Ford, there are questions to answer about how institutions like the EIB operates.

My view is that the EIB is generating profit for its loans, to the benefit of the EU and the member states Govts that underwrite the EIB at the expense of EU workers. Sounds kinda Tory doesn’t it?

Chin chin.

PS. yes, I am, and I was bought up to understand the difference between Tories and socialists.

Tell me how not being a member makes it more possible for us to have retained those jobs, and I could have a bit more sympathy for your position.

 

[cunning fergus]

A drop in ocean compared to £4000M spent and no deal Brexit planning, and £50,000M in lost growth to the economy since Brexit

#brexitnumbers

Real pity a £3k Brexit levy couldn't be slapped on every leave voter, would focus their minds a bit. Instead chuck it on the credit card, our kids pick up the tab!!

You are George Osbourne and i claim my £10.......lost growth pffff.

 

[Baldseagull]

Over the same period how much have we paid in to get back that amount can you look that up

£0, capital is raised through bonds.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

[TWEET]1083290286883782656[/TWEET]

Strange he leaves the one obvious body off the list of possible candidates ..... The Government.

 

[cunning fergus]

Tell me how not being a member makes it more possible for us to have retained those jobs, and I could have a bit more sympathy for your position.

Well Turkey is not a member, but took jobs that were being carried out in the EU for decades. The old transit adverts used to say Southampton, home of the Transit......not any more.

The truth is that broadly speaking jobs are no safer in the EU than out.....those Ford jobs lost in the UK could have gone anywhere thatcwas cheaper. Spain is a good example where post 2008 crisis plants were down to a single shift, and workers pay was cut 40%. Within 12-18 months the plants were running at full capacitty and othe European plants i(France in particular) were vlosing shifts.

My position is simple, the EU as an institution is a rapacously capitalist, its hand maidrns care about profit, not workers.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Intriguing ..... I've got to ask ..... why ?

Google it.

 

[nicko31]

Strange he leaves the one obvious body off the list of possible candidates ..... The Government.

I think is this is because the list provided is from the governments perspective, and / or the right leaning end of the Tory party

We could add the NSC Brexit thread I guess....

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Google it.

Naughty

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I think is this is because the list provided is from the governments perspective, and / or the right leaning end of the Tory party

We could add the NSC Brexit thread I guess....

I'm not sure the government would provide any list ...... especially to a left leaning actor.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Naughty

Ha ha. It appeared when I Googled the dictionary spelling earlier today and made me chuckle. .

 

[cunning fergus]

If you don't like being accused of writing complete bollocks then don't write complete bollocks. It's that simple.

a) According to you, anyone who doesn't agree with you over Brexit is a Tory. That'll be news to the people of Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Finland and Ireland - all of whom have elected left-of-centre governments yet whose electorate don't see the need to quit the EU. There are plenty of good anti-Tory reasons for staying in the EU, but nobody is accusing you of being Jacob Rees-Mogg's patsy are they? Perhaps they should.

b) You've decided the people want a Corbyn socialist government. Apparently, posting a link to a poll that says most people want the railways back in public hands is proof of this. I'm sure the fact that the railways are the most badly mismanaged public service ever put into private hands is nothing to do with this whatsoever, and that this is far more conclusive proof we all want to live under Corbyn's socialism than a mere general election that they lost conclusively barely 20 months ago despite the feeble Tory opposition who didn't even feel the need to campaign properly.

As for Blair, I was no fan of him after Iraq but he did a good job in uniting the fragmented left-of-centre majority in this country. Of course class-warriors like you didn't like it very much because you saw it as some sort of Tory take-over rather than what it actually was. We are currently seeing what happens when Labour move left and away from the centre ground - they only take with them about 50% of the votes they need to secure power. That would be fine in a PR-elected democracy, but with FPTP this lack of pragmatism costs Labour and costs the country. But what I particularly don't like about Corbyn and McDonnell is that they have both spent their entire careers whinging and moaning at the top brass in their own party, but have got all pissy when others inside Labour do the same thing to them. And as much as I always sympathised with the Irish back in the dark days, Corbyn's attitude was shocking. Never forget that he attended a commemoration for IRA members killed by the British army, but was never seen doing the same on the other side. Shameful.

Lets not drag the dabate in the gutter, i am perilously close to a permanent ban so lets behave ourselves.

To an overwhelming extent i see the EU as a Tory inspired project snd its suppotters as tories. It was Ted Heath that took us in the EEC (by 6 votes) and Thatcher that campaignef to keep us in during the Ref in 75. All that time the Labour party were opposed to our membership and for good reason. That is historical fact, as is Blairs shameful tinkering with the Labour constitution to facilitate a more business orientated Labour Party that would embrace markets instead of regulating them.

You said people had no appetite for Corbyn’s socialism, but i disagree, in particular with regard to the nationalisation of rail, utilities etc. Those policies would be popular.

I dont think Corbyn is currently the answer though, he is a busted flush with some of his past eccentricities, however that does not mean he is wrong on everything. As a old school socialist he cannot be anything but opposed to the EU with its bias towards globsl corporatism. With a following like he has i would love him to educate the young about what the EU is, and why his forebears were opposed to it, because all their fears expressed in the 70s and 80s have materislised.

There, not much to ask for....