[Politics] Brexit

[Thunder Bolt]

Sure, there is a lot there which is reasonable, overall I think that the westernisation of central and Eastern Europe is a good thing and as those countries develop, and technology etc. that should be positive. As should continued economic growth for those countries and those in the west.

Nevertheless, this expansion of the EU has happened and continues to happen remote to the citizens of the EU. When we joined the EEC it was 6/7 countries, the expansion and consequences of expansion occurred without any democratic mandate as far as I can tell? When Poland and other A8 countries joined U.K. voters were told that about 15,000 Poles would come and work.......another great forecast from the Govt of the day.

Peace and prosperity in the West is rooted in a nation’s trust that it’s Govt and institutions are acting in the interests of its citizens, and sadly we are seeing that break down in the west generally and the U.K. I’m sure all those MEPs and the hundreds of thousands employed through the organs of the European project think they are a force for good, but they are not. The rise of non mainstream political parties in Europe indicates the project isn’t working for its citizens. The EU taking punitive action against democratically elected Govts for not acting in accordance with EU “values” (whatever they are) is not helping either.

There is more trouble ahead, Brexit is a mere hors d‘oeuvre for the future problems that will befall the EU.

I would like to know more about the punitive action taken. I thought it applied to countries using the euro, and economy, but would be genuinely interested in hearing about anything else.

You mentioned TTIP, in an earlier post, and that was a concern for me before the referendum, but equally, as I see it, this government is running down the NHS to such an extent to privatise it via the back door.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Will his successor get voted in by the EU electorate?

No, by MEPs, in the same way as I have no influence in who is selected as Prime Minister.
You didn't say the head of the EU, but mentioned Juncker as an individual.

 

[cunning fergus]

I would like to know more about the punitive action taken. I thought it applied to countries using the euro, and economy, but would be genuinely interested in hearing about anything else.

You mentioned TTIP, in an earlier post, and that was a concern for me before the referendum, but equally, as I see it, this government is running down the NHS to such an extent to privatise it via the back door.

Sure, Poland is on the road to being stripped of its voting rights under article 7. Hungary and the Visegrad countries are also on that path.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eur...ticle-7-poland-judicial-reform-voting-rights/

Italy was recently criticised with its budget and the Commission demanded change, yet France has not met EU budget rules for years and never had its budget amended.

As you will know EU trade deals are conducted by the commission far from public scrutiny, a situation that would not happen here.......there was enough information for some legal minds to express concerns......

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/22/ttip-deal-real-serious-risk-nhs-leading-qc

Corbyn, rightly said he would have wrecked it....

https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-yes-to-eu-no-to-ttip-brexit-eu-referendum-labour-uk/

 

[cunning fergus]

No, by MEPs, in the same way as I have no influence in who is selected as Prime Minister.
You didn't say the head of the EU, but mentioned Juncker as an individual.

Yes, but Juncker is head of the EU arm that creates the laws and generally administers to EU. Of all the arms,, his and the EU commissioners should be accountable to the electorate.

The EU Parliament has no effective opposition, it is unaccountable to its constituencies in the same way MPs in HOP are, which for all its current faults offers the electorate a more direct form of democracy.

You are right that you don’t vote in a PM, but you do have a vote in an election on their party, and you can have a say on their selection if you are a member of a political party.

None of that applies to the head of the commission.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

No, by MEPs, in the same way as I have no influence in who is selected as Prime Minister.
You didn't say the head of the EU, but mentioned Juncker as an individual.

You can join the Tory or Labour party and get a vote on the leader of your party and therefore the PM. Which organisation, as a normal citizen, can I join to get a vote on the head of the EU ?

 

[ManOfSussex]

As an aside, when Fergus first raised his tedious Transit van tale it was picked apart and comprehensively dismantled. It’s all in this thread if you can be arsed to scroll back.

He’s got a handful of arguments and insults he endlessly repeats....most of us a just bored by them now.

He was so deeply troubled by his supposed ban from this thread, the fact of which he also endlessly repeated on any other thread that was Brexit related.

Strange, I would have thought a sheet metal workers son from Whitehawk etc wouldn't be quite so precious?

 

[CHAPPERS]

[tweet]1083638252484132864[/tweet]

 

[Gwylan]

You can join the Tory or Labour party and get a vote on the leader of your party and therefore the PM. Which organisation, as a normal citizen, can I join to get a vote on the head of the EU ?

Theresa May was selected after a vote by MPs (chosen by the electorate): Juncker was selected a vote by MEPs (chosen by the electorate) - I'm struggling to see the difference TBH.

I certainly don't want to be sticking up for the EU, there are plenty of issues there but I do think as Britons, with an unelected head of state, an unelected second chamber and a PM that 99% have no say in choosing, we have little right to get on our high horse.

 

[cunning fergus]

He was so deeply troubled by his supposed ban from this thread, the fact of which he also endlessly repeated on any other thread that was Brexit related.

Strange, I would have thought a sheet metal workers son from Whitehawk etc wouldn't be quite so precious?

Dont worry, when I have made circa 10,000 posts in 2 years, i will voluntarily place myself in the “endlessly repeating” category.

That said, that 18 month ban from this thread was an interesting time, i have since find out it was due to the abusive tone of some of my posts......on this thread would you belive it!

So go careful on here my love......im sure what goes around etc.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Dont worry, when I have made circa 10,000 posts in 2 years, i will voluntarily place myself in the “endlessly repeating” category.

That said, that 18 month ban from this thread was an interesting time, i have since find out it was due to the abusive tone of some of my posts......on this thread would you belive it!

So go careful on here my love......im sure what goes around etc.

Well done - if not calling people a Tory, and mentioning you're a sheet metal workers son from Whitehawk, then comment on how many posts they've made and call them 'love' or 'chicken' - well done.

 

[Mtoto]

All fair points Gwylan, but you forgot to mention the FPTP system which means so many votes are effectively wasted.

At least our elections to the Euro parliament use a PR system ... though had it not been in place, it's possible that Nigel Farage would never have got within 500 miles of it, in order to pick up a chunky salary and pension without doing any work while repeatedly telling his fellow MEPs that they are "undemocratic".

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Theresa May was selected after a vote by MPs (chosen by the electorate): Juncker was selected a vote by MEPs (chosen by the electorate) - I'm struggling to see the difference TBH.

I certainly don't want to be sticking up for the EU, there are plenty of issues there but I do think as Britons, with an unelected head of state, an unelected second chamber and a PM that 99% have no say in choosing, we have little right to get on our high horse.

Had the JRM coup against May been successful the final vote for leader would have gone to Tory party members - I'll concede that getting the list of candidates for the members is a somewhat closed method but the members ( which any of us can become ) would have got the final say. Likewise in the Labour Party, one member, one vote for party leader and there for possible PM. Barring becoming an MEP there is not one single way I can get a say in who becomes head of the EU.

As already mentioned the Queen is just a figure head - she is neutral - she holds no real power as Head of State and therefore I'm personally not that bothered I don't get a say in who it is. In fact I'd prefer a neutral HoS with none the idiot politics around it. You only need look at France or the States at the moment to see our model is better - President May, President Blair anyone ? *shudders*

I agree with you on the second chamber - I posted my solution to this here - https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showt...MP-gets-life-peerage-before-her-40th-birthday - only this morning.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yes, but Juncker is head of the EU arm that creates the laws and generally administers to EU. Of all the arms,, his and the EU commissioners should be accountable to the electorate.

The EU Parliament has no effective opposition, it is unaccountable to its constituencies in the same way MPs in HOP are, which for all its current faults offers the electorate a more direct form of democracy.

You are right that you don’t vote in a PM, but you do have a vote in an election on their party, and you can have a say on their selection if you are a member of a political party.

None of that applies to the head of the commission.

My MP doesn't represent her constituency which is 52% Remain, and is a member of the ERG, which is the extreme opposite. I realise we have First past the post, but there is no accountability to her constituents for her voting record. Hopefully she will be kicked out at the next election.

The EU Parliament has 750 seats of which the UK holds 75. Most of Europe have coalition parliaments due to having many parties rather than the two main ones here.

I've only ever been a member of one political party, The Seagulls Party. None of the others represent my views enough to make me want to join.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Sure, Poland is on the road to being stripped of its voting rights under article 7. Hungary and the Visegrad countries are also on that path.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eur...ticle-7-poland-judicial-reform-voting-rights/

It's an interesting story, but Poland signed up to the EU laws in the same way that football clubs sign up to FA laws. It isn't the 'EU' who are is taking punitive action, as such, as the vote in Parliament required all countries to agree, with Hungary already saying it would veto it. 28 different countries have got to agree such an action so the chances, as that article said, are very slim. The EU is not a faceless entity but a group of countries, so it cannot just unilaterally punish another country.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Only the ones that have no interest in thinking about the consequences and predicting what might happen.

Again a supposition. I am more than interested in cause and effect in this case. Just don't want to predict it on this thread as imo most people on both sides are so entrenched that it's futile.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Any leavers vote for this?

[tweet]1083374262533177345[/tweet]

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Any leavers vote for this?

[tweet]1083374262533177345[/tweet]

We are told on NSC that they all voted for the same thing - so it's all of them, or none of them.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Cabinet really pulling together at this challenging time

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...vring-leadership-fights-save-Brexit-deal.html

Mr Gibb's full leaked email

This is a challenging time for the Government.

Number 10 worked incredibly hard and deliberately starved out the Downing St weekend grid [of media appearances] to give the launch of PM’s NHS plan – its biggest ever cash injection – the best possible coverage.

But because of briefings and articles by ministers in Sunday papers, attention was diverted elsewhere. To add to our frustration, No 10 had no warning of two ministerial op-eds [articles] and there was a briefing on a policy change we did not approve.

I’d like to say it was out of the ordinary but it isn’t. More and more interviews and briefings appear that have not been approved or are even on the No 10 grid.

There is a clear process for doing this and it must be adhered to.

Let me remind you that all Government special advisers work for the Prime Minister as well as your own Secretary of State.

Your duty is to promote the Government’s message, not just your own minister’s.

I am sorry to start the New Year on a sour note but this situation cannot continue.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

"I am sorry to start the New Year on a sour note but this situation cannot continue."

*Barber copies to clipboard*

 

[ManOfSussex]

Any leavers vote for this?

[tweet]1083374262533177345[/tweet]

The husband of a Viscount's daughter tweeting a letter from a Lord about a 'sovereign Brexit on WTO rules' tally ho, what, what, what, free trade deals with Burundi, spiffing etc.

I remember Owen Paterson telling Dermot Murnaghan on Sky News at the end of 2016 saying we need to 'get cracking' with Article 50 and there'd be a deal because German car manufacturers would insist upon it and when pressed as to why insisted 'because there has to be!.

Now it's 'No deal? No problem, ya, we're Briddish!'

A Brexit backing Tory toff says something and some people still believe it.