When will they actually get it in their thick heads .....

[The Mole]

Can't say it any better than the late great Bill Hicks

http://http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=8Xc1Rt93bN0

 

[Guy Fawkes]

So the people committing these crimes don't own or have access to a gun then? To be honest, you're not the best person to ask about arsenals.

So why arn't there more gun related murders in the Uk then if there are 3,400,000 civilian firearms in this country. Is it the gun or the person with the gun?

About Arsenals what? - defeat to Bradford in the cup ? Yes your right, i don't follow them that closely.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Interestingly, there was a similar event in China today, but the difference is that children were only wounded because the lunatic attacker only had a knife. So, although horrifying, 22 children will live thanks to the fact that the Chinese do not " have the right to bear arms "

That's because their dictatorial Government rules over them with guns pointed at their heads.

 

[Bold Seagull]

So why arn't there more gun related murders in the Uk then if there are 3,400,000 civilian firearms in this country. Is it the gun or the person with the gun?

The controls in this country are so strict that it is a very difficult process for an individual own a gun. Take the SAS case recently where he was arrested simply for having a pistol in the house. It is the person, but when any old person can have a mental breakdown and have immediate access to weapons without planning or premeditation, then the consequences are what they are.

I suspect there are just as many people who have psychotic episodes here as in the US, however here your average disaffected individual isn't able to pop to into his garage or local store, pick up a bullet proof vest and what ever rifles and guns take his fancy and decide to have his vengeance on humanity.

20 little kids all under 10 years old, unimaginable horror, no doubt avoidable if he wasn't able to get his hands on high powered fire arms so easily. Very distressing to even contemplate what must have happened, and probably better that we all concentrate on arguing about gun laws rather than think too much about what happened in that school. The shot of the kids coming out hand in hand with their eyes shut simply filled me with a gut level of dread.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

I think that's bollocks, US is something like 80odd guns per 100 people, Canada is something like 30 per 100. Difference as well is that Canadians tend to have them purely for hunting and not constitutionally for their defense of defense of their property.

Even the Yemen has less guns per person than the US!

I think that the info came from the Michael Moore documentary Bowling For Columbine.

A few things it did raise that could be relevant to the discussion

For some reason, in the USA, a large number of people are killed each year by gun violence. Other countries don’t have this problem. The movie provides the following statistics.
Country Yearly Firearm Homicides
(i.e. not including accidents)
USA 11,127
Germany 381
France 255
Canada 165
United Kingdom 68
Japan 39

What is Not the Cause
- American gun ownership is exceptionally high. Perhaps that is the problem. Yet Canada has equally high ownership, and they have much less problem.
- Americans are exposed to ultra-violent video games. Perhaps that is the problem. Yet so are the Japanese, and they have an extremely low rate.
- Americans have a multiracial society. Perhaps that is the problem. Yet so do the British, and they have low rates.
- America was involved in a divisive civil war. Perhaps that is the problem. Yet other countries had them too.
- American watch ultra-violent movies. Perhaps that is the problem. Yet other countries do to, watching the very same movies.

What Could be the Cause?
What is unique about America? What could possibly be a cause? Moore hints at some of these causes in his movie. This is primarily a list of what is unique about America, and only secondarily about what are plausible causes.

- The USA was the only western country to historically make extensive use of slaves. Descendants of slave owners inherit the family attitude of fear of blacks.
- The USA was the only western country that historically recently killed large numbers of indigenous people. Descendants of pioneers inherit the paranoia of those involved in the massacres.
- The USA’s TV news and reality TV is the most violent of any country. Adrenalin keeps the ratings up. People come to believe they live in a world far more dangerous than it actually is.
- The USA is the dominant economic and military power on the planet. Americans have the normal paranoia of the wealthy that others are just itching to take it all away.
- The USA had a period of prohibition which lead to the rise of the Mafia, and a glorification of the mob in pop culture. Mob morality leaked into everyday life. Prohibition provided high profits to the rum runners. A shot could go for $3 where prior to prohibition it was only a few cents. The need for transporting and warehousing large amounts of liquor forced criminals to co-operate. They had coordinate the bribing of thousands of officials. Criminals had to get organised.
- The USA has a much stricter prohibition on drugs than other countries do. Other countries focus more on harm reduction, treatment and education. The resulting high profits stimulate violent turf wars between drug dealers.
- America is the most Christian western nation. It tends to favour fundamentalist denominations that teach God is cruel, vengeful and violent. Right wingers generally are doing most of the shooting. They learn the notion of violent retribution from the pulpit.
- Americans have a love affair with the automobile. Most of the rest of the world don’t use automobiles to anywhere near the same extent, even when they own them. Americans isolated in their cars don’t rub shoulders with the same people day after day the way people in other cultures do. The car lets an American range over a huge territory each day. The automobile means Americans tend to live in a world mainly populated by total strangers. There is a natural primate distrust of strangers.
- The USA has the 2nd Amendment which gives a constitutional right to bear arms. Americans tie gun ownership to virtue and patriotism more than anyone else. They are much more emotional about guns.
- Protection of property is extremely important to Americans. It morally, if not legally, justifies killing a suspected thief. People in other countries tend to value life above property even the life of a burglar. People often kill family members mistaking them for burglars.

Quote taken from here as i couldn't be bothered to re watch the film to get it's 'facts' Bowling For Columbine

But then it could all be a load of rubbish and the real reason is because they are all stupid

 

[Guy Fawkes]

The controls in this country are so strict that it is a very difficult process for an individual own a gun. Take the SAS case recently where he was arrested simply for having a pistol in the house. It is the person, but when any old person can have a mental breakdown and have immediate access to weapons without planning or premeditation, then the consequences are what they are.

I suspect there are just as many people who have psychotic episodes here as in the US, however here your average disaffected individual isn't able to pop to into his garage or local store, pick up a bullet proof vest and what ever rifles and guns take his fancy and decide to have his vengeance on humanity.

20 little kids all under 10 years old, unimaginable horror, no doubt avoidable if he wasn't able to get his hands on high powered fire arms so easily. Very distressing to even contemplate what must have happened, and probably better that we all concentrate on arguing about gun laws rather than think too much about what happened in that school. The shot of the kids coming out hand in hand with their eyes shut simply filled me with a gut level of dread.

Other countries have large numbers of civilians with easy access to firearms but don't have the same sort of figures, so why so many school shootings in the states?

Is it simply a numbers thing or is there something wrong in the set up that causes this resentment and triggers these types of events? If there is a common cause, can steps be taken to try to stop it happening again.

Tighter gun control as being suggested seems a bit like the knee jerk reaction to Hillsborough in this country where they made grounds all seater.

 

[smeariestbat]

So why arn't there more gun related murders in the Uk then if there are 3,400,000 civilian firearms in this country. Is it the gun or the person with the gun?

About Arsenals what? - defeat to Bradford in the cup ? Yes your right, i don't follow them that closely.

WHOOOOSH, I do believe he's on about your username Guido. Houses of parlament and all that.

 

[brighton rock]

The controls in this country are so strict that it is a very difficult process for an individual own a gun. Take the SAS case recently where he was arrested simply for having a pistol in the house. It is the person, but when any old person can have a mental breakdown and have immediate access to weapons without planning or premeditation, then the consequences are what they are.

I suspect there are just as many people who have psychotic episodes here as in the US, however here your average disaffected individual isn't able to pop to into his garage or local store, pick up a bullet proof vest and what ever rifles and guns take his fancy and decide to have his vengeance on humanity.

20 little kids all under 10 years old, unimaginable horror, no doubt avoidable if he wasn't able to get his hands on high powered fire arms so easily. Very distressing to even contemplate what must have happened, and probably better that we all concentrate on arguing about gun laws rather than think too much about what happened in that school. The shot of the kids coming out hand in hand with their eyes shut simply filled me with a gut level of dread.

Gun controls are tight in this country firstly you need a reason to own a gun
Say rabbit control
Then you can only apply for the caliber of gun needed for this job ( you won't get a tank to shoot rabbits)
You must have land with permission to shoot the gun on
You are limited to the amount of ammo you can buy and keep at home
You must have a gun cabinet and a separate ammo store with own key
2 refs from suitable people
A clean bill of Heath from your doctor
Plus a visit from the police
Not been in prison for over 3 years

 

[Poojah]

It shouldn't be assumed that there can only be one solution to this problem; and it clearly is a problem for America. Placing major restrictions on gun ownership makes sense to me. I'm not suggesting that it would be easy, practically or politically, to reverse something that has been a part of a nation's culture for some time, however I just don't see why the average man on the street needs to own such a weapon. It wouldn't necessarily solve the problem on its own, but it common sense tells you that it would make it more difficult and less likely to happen.

The root of the problem though surely rests on understanding 'why' people choose to do things like this. Presumably, it's either because:

a) They have a distorted sense of logic and a belief that what they are doing makes sense or is somehow a positive act (see Breivik, Anders)

b) They have abnormal desires which drive them to commit the crime in pursuit of pleasure / gratification (less likely, I would imagine, as the perpetrator isn't likely to be around long enough to enjoy their moment)

Either way, the person in question clearly has to be mentally ill. A 'normal' person with a healthy mind simply wouldn't do it. I'm not suggesting it's possible to prevent something like this ever again, but pre-emptive screening of individuals with high-risk personality traits (if there are such a thing) would also surely go some way.

The fundamental, practical issue is this: restricting gun ownership, pre-emptive screening and any other approach that could be taken would come at a significant cost to an already struggling US economy. To save, what, 10 lives a year on average? These events are newsworthy because the crimes are so appalling, but in a country where the best part of 100 people die in road traffic accidents every day, in the wider context is it a big enough problem to justify the expense of attempting to solve?

 

[Triggaaar]

WHOOOOSH, I do believe he's on about your username Guido. Houses of parlament and all that.

I reckon you got summit there

 

[8ace]

There was a story a few years about two kids who took were shooting at cars on the freeway with a rifle. The blame was laid at video games' door as they had played Grand Theft Auto. The fact that they had ready access to a powerful rifle didn't seem to be an issue

 

[Tooting Gull]

Incredibly, while we all think this Obama-led US government is a pawn to the gun lobby - it would have got EVEN worse if Romney had won the election. He reckoned the current policies are RESTRICTIVE on gun owners. That is one scary country, this bloke almost got in.

This, from earlier this year:

'Mitt Romney, the likely Republican presidential nominee, spoke to the convention on Friday, vowing to reverse what he calls the restrictive gun policies of President Barack Obama's administration.

"We need a president who will stand up for the rights of hunters, sportsmen, and those seeking to protect their homes and their families," he said. "President Obama has not. I will."

 

[Brightonfan1983]

They do bang on about the 'right to bear arms' being in their constitution. I just wish they'd read the whole article. Or sentence, come to that.

 

[Lower West Stander]

As Eddie Izzard said when told that guns don't kill, people do.

"Guns have a lot do with it"

 

[clapham_gull]

The number of firearms per person is far higher in countries like Canada but they have a fraction of the number of gun related deaths than the US have.

Firearm ownership doesn't cause these incidents, maybe the other causes should be looked into and hopefully more solutions found. Its far too easy for people to jump on the band wagon and simply blame gun ownership for these types of incidents.

Tired statistic.

Does it not prove that in the USA that gun ownership needs to addressed ? If the Canadians can quite happily exist whilst owning guns then no problem there.

Same as the concern over alcohol consumption in this country. Other European countries don't need restrictions but then again they don't choose to drink themselves to oblivion and smash up high streets on a Friday night.

The ease of gun ownership in America quite obviously does cause these incidents because it appears people with pyschological problems can get access to firearms with ease.They have a right you see....

 

[RexCathedra]

They do bang on about the 'right to bear arms' being in their constitution. I just wish they'd read the whole article. Or sentence, come to that.

"Banging on" is an understatement. The Maine state constitution states "Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned. "

Never. Be. Questioned.

It's the state religion. Not Protestant Christianity, not even Christianity.

Guns.

As Tertullian of Carthage said: "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church."

20 more witnesses to the faith today.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Obviously in Canada they shoot moose and maybe the odd racoon. Not five-year-old children.

 

[Blackadder]

Gun controls are tight in this country firstly you need a reason to own a gun
Say rabbit control
Then you can only apply for the caliber of gun needed for this job ( you won't get a tank to shoot rabbits)
You must have land with permission to shoot the gun on
You are limited to the amount of ammo you can buy and keep at home
You must have a gun cabinet and a separate ammo store with own key
2 refs from suitable people
A clean bill of Heath from your doctor
Plus a visit from the police
Not been in prison for over 3 years

That makes sense to me, apart from the prison bit. If someone has been out of prison for 4 years, it's OK?

 

[Dr Q]

Gun controls are tight in this country firstly you need a reason to own a gun
Say rabbit control
Then you can only apply for the caliber of gun needed for this job ( you won't get a tank to shoot rabbits)
You must have land with permission to shoot the gun on
You are limited to the amount of ammo you can buy and keep at home
You must have a gun cabinet and a separate ammo store with own key
2 refs from suitable people
A clean bill of Heath from your doctor
Plus a visit from the police
Not been in prison for over 3 years

Absolutely, our licensing is very very stringent.
It is also a fact in the UK that nearly all gun crime is committed by non-license holders with unlicensed weapons. There are the odd occasions, where license holders have gone bonkers (e.g Durham last year and the Cumbrian Taxi nutter), and there have been errors made by the licensing dept as demonstrated in Durham I think, but overall the assessments are good enough to filter out the potential problems.

Also, you don't actually need a reason to get a shotgun license (the police have to demonstrate why you shouldn't have it), but you certainly do with a firearms license (rabbit shooting, stalking etc).

 

[Guy Fawkes]

WHOOOOSH, I do believe he's on about your username Guido. Houses of parlament and all that.

WHOOOOSH back i think you'll find