What party would you vote for tommorow

[Westdene Seagull]

uk independence party

Normally I would join you but currently I'm being taxed to the highest level I have ever been but yet I'm receiveing some of the worst ( or in some cases non-exsistant ) services ever.

M3W4 made the most realistic and sensible comment of the debate so far further up this page.

So I'll probably be voting Tory just to get rid of Labour. That said I will only make my final decision closer to the time once I know the candidates, their view points and party policies for the next 5 years. Unfortunately some people don't seem to take these three points into consideration very often - if at all.

 

[attila]

They are all as bad as each other, and furthermore, in terms of policies, virtually indistinguishable from each other (apart from the BNP of course, who are once again attempting to benefit from 'Labour's (ha!) abject betrayal of their core constituency and portray themselves as 'the party of the people'...)

We need an electoral system where people can actually vote for a party which represents their views, knowing that once they reach a threshold of say 5% they will be represented in parliament, rather than the current situation where we know that we either vote for Tweedledum, Tweedledee, or Tweedledumdee, cast a wasted vote, spoil the ballot paper or don't turn up.

That's not democracy.

 

[Trufflehound]

We need an electoral system where people can actually vote for a party which represents their views, knowing that once they reach a threshold of say 5% they will be represented in parliament, rather than the current situation where we know that we either vote for Tweedledum, Tweedledee, or Tweedledumdee, cast a wasted vote, spoil the ballot paper or don't turn up.

That's not democracy.

I'm all for PR, but unfortunately isn't the only "significant" party that advocates it the Lib Dems? And we all know what we think of them...

 

[Rougvie]

I think its frightening how many ordinary people are actually looking at the BNP as some sort of realistic alternative.

Nice to see John Reid has woken up and realised that the country is now just bursting at the seams and the quality of life in the some areas is being badly affected by congestion and weight of population.

Common sense policies will win the next election, Labour just went 1-0 up after 15 minutes.

 

[coventrygull]

I think its frightening how many ordinary people are actually looking at the BNP as some sort of realistic alternative.

Nice to see John Reid has woken up and realised that the country is now just bursting at the seams and the quality of life in the some areas is being badly affected by congestion and weight of population.

Common sense policies will win the next election, Labour just went 1-0 up after 15 minutes.

You may think its frightening that some people think that the BNP is a realistic alternative but Labour has only itself to blame.

The tragic thing is John Reid may have woken up to late and remember the BNP is seen as the moderate alternative on the far right.

 

[Life After Bobby]

Bollocks to the power of testicles.

I suppose that Tony Benn ought to just pack up his bags then - it's all been a waste of time.

Oy! Tam Dalyell - you've been subbed.

It says a lot about you that someone born into generations of privilege is somehow not allowed to hold a political opinion but if your dad done good and brought you up in the lap of luxury that's okay then.

Inverted snobbery is the worst kind of snobbery no matter how it is justified.

Sigh. If you actually read what i said - and i was very careful in what i wrote - i said it illustrates but does not define.

The system of privilege i refer to - and the hereditary peers that still sit in the House of Lords neatly illustrates this fact - means that precisely because you were born into a certain family, you were therefore born to be a leader. Not by merit, but by birth.

There are many exceptions - Tony Benn, for one, renounced his peerage (plus he was only a second generation peer).

However, the sense among the upper classes that they are this country's rightful rulers (and, i might add, a god-given right) still pervades.

 

[The Large One]

Do you mean the Labour party voters. Blair has killed more moslems than the BNP could ever dream of

f***ing hell. What the f*** has being a Labour Party voter got to do with killing Muslims? Ah, you're putting two and two together and coming up with 6,500. If you vote Labour, it means you actively condone the slaughter of Muslims. Got you.

f***ing stroll on.

 

[The Large One]

You may think its frightening that some people think that the BNP is a realistic alternative but Labour has only itself to blame.

The tragic thing is John Reid may have woken up to late and remember the BNP is seen as the moderate alternative on the far right.

No it isn't. It's a party steeped in violence, stupidity, hatred, racism, with many of the hierarchy having convictions for GBH, assault etc.

Your view of 'moderate' is very disconcerting.

 

[The Large One]

I think the person who mentioned office chat hit the nail on the head, apart from bods on here I genuanly dont know anyone who will vote Labour at the next election! sorry but it's going to happen and MOH,LI & TLO will all join Jim Davidson in the middle East on that famous Friday morning

You don't know who will vote Labour? Must be the circles you move in - very isolated.

Point is, the policy-less chancer David Cameron aside, the shadow Cabinet, destined to take over power should the Tories ever win an election - yeah, right - are the same bunch of losers (Hague, Willetts, Letwin etc) which has brought the party to its knees over the past 10 years. It's little more than musical chairs on the Titanic. Even the British electorate knows what a tragic bunch the Tories are nowadays.

 

[Buzzer]

Sigh. If you actually read what i said - and i was very careful in what i wrote - i said it illustrates but does not define.

The system of privilege i refer to - and the hereditary peers that still sit in the House of Lords neatly illustrates this fact - means that precisely because you were born into a certain family, you were therefore born to be a leader. Not by merit, but by birth.

There are many exceptions - Tony Benn, for one, renounced his peerage (plus he was only a second generation peer).

However, the sense among the upper classes that they are this country's rightful rulers (and, i might add, a god-given right) still pervades.

I did read your post carefully. The implication, no the actual statment, was that those that are somehow 'born into generations of power' have less of a right to rule than those that have come to it recently. Otherwise what is the difference between Tony and David that you are trying to get at?

Both are equally as privileged. That is the truth. You are differentiating them on the basis of their family history which is disingenuous. It's as disingenuous as Tony talking about his working class roots when they are meaningless to him. He has no meaningful working class reference point or life experience. Neither did Michael Meacher, Douglas Hurd or any of those claiming that they are of a humbler background than they really were.

The fact that people renounce their peerages is also meaningless. I renounce my working class background. Big deal. Doesn't stop the fact that I didn't have a privileged upbringing. Likewise, how does Tony Benn renouncing his rights to a title stop him from being privileged? It doesn't. It also doesn't confer him with a new experience of how he was brought up.

Why did you not vote Tory at the last election, then if class and privilege is such a big deal for you? Michael Howard had a very, very humble upbringing. So does David Davis and an awful lot of the Tory front bench. In comparison, New Labour is riddled with those that have never experienced hardship.

There are as many toffs in New Labour as there are in the Tories. Class and upbringing are irrelevant qualifications or limitations when it comes to running the country and they should not be factors in choosing a leader.

Inverted snobbery is still the worst kind of snobbery. Ooh, look, Tony Benn and Tony Blair are only first or second generation toffs therefore they're better than third or fifteenth generation toffs. Doesn't really wash as a political statement, does it?

 

[Rougvie]

Even the British electorate knows what a tragic bunch the Tories are nowadays.

Not so sure about that statement, TB managed to turn a party of extremity and no hopers into a slick machine that had no problems convicing the electorate they were a better alternative. If Cameron secures the Murdoch press he will have a very strong voice to push his 'New Conservitives' agenda, put that together with a few nice common sense policies on Tax, Immigration and the NHS and its a landslide majority.

 

[Tubby Mondays]

Hang on, local or general election?

Where's the option for Green Party, or Socialist Labour, or Respect, or the Seagulls Party?

And Acid House Party?!

 

[The Large One]

Not so sure about that statement, TB managed to turn a party of extremity and no hopers into a slick machine that had no problems convicing the electorate they were a better alternative.

Blair changed the party by GETTING RID the 'old guard' - Healey, Benn, Foot, Heffer etc, and bringing in his own bright young things.

If Cameron secures the Murdoch press he will have a very strong voice to push his 'New Conservitives' agenda, put that together with a few nice common sense policies on Tax, Immigration and the NHS and its a landslide majority.

People still have a mistrust of the Conservatives in the same way the people had a mistrust of Labour 20 years ago - they found them palpably unelectable. David Cameron isn't capable of 'common sense' policies over tax, immigration and the NHS, fundamentally because he is a Tory, and is terrified of losing his core voters. Blair won in 1997 because he was prepared to alienate some of his traditional voters in order to win new ones. Cameron and the Tories aren't prepared to do that because the party membership aren't prepared to accept it.

For instance, look at the nonsensical tax cut statement the Tories made last week when they said they were going to cut taxes by £21bn. A great thing for the Tory rank and file to rally behind, but a politically suicidal thing to say on a national level because no-one else believes them, and if they did, they know it would be at the expense of public services, one of the few things the country does agree with Labour about - even if Labour themselves are not making the best fist of it.

 

[aftershavedave]

labour for me, with reservations stemming directly from blair's iraq war debacle. i'd certainly want to hear brown's (post-Blair) write up of what he really felt at the time, and my candidate's view also, though.

labour under brown's chancellorship have introduced a level of economic stability unheard of in this country. and business trusts labour, something that's never happened before.

cameron is a man looking to gain votes without announcing any policies, and while i can understand why, i think it's shameful. and the old tories are waiting behind to tug him back into line whenever they can.

liberal democrats have thrown away any credibility locally with falmer and nationally with that old fella campbell.

the others? not serious contenders.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

Blair changed the party by GETTING RID the 'old guard' - Healey, Benn, Foot, Heffer etc, and bringing in his own bright young things.


People still have a mistrust of the Conservatives in the same way the people had a mistrust of Labour 20 years ago - they found them palpably unelectable. David Cameron isn't capable of 'common sense' policies over tax, immigration and the NHS, fundamentally because he is a Tory, and is terrified of losing his core voters. Blair won in 1997 because he was prepared to alienate some of his traditional voters in order to win new ones. Cameron and the Tories aren't prepared to do that because the party membership aren't prepared to accept it.

For instance, look at the nonsensical tax cut statement the Tories made last week when they said they were going to cut taxes by £21bn. A great thing for the Tory rank and file to rally behind, but a politically suicidal thing to say on a national level because no-one else believes them, and if they did, they know it would be at the expense of public services, one of the few things the country does agree with Labour about - even if Labour themselves are not making the best fist of it.

The reason why Cameron is different is that he hasn't made up his mind. What is the point of an opposition deciding what its policy is 3 years before a general election? Sure he is getting castigated for having no direction, but thats far better than going 30 miles in the wrong direction before realising that they are going the wrong way.

He also isn't appealing to the party core. You can tell that because Norman Tebbit doesn't like him, but also because of the things he has said. Like including the refrence to gay marriage in his conference speech and also things like tax cuts.

Under Hague or Duncan-Smith had a tory policy review come up with "lets cuts loads of taxs" the leader would have signed up immidietly because thats what the core vote wants and it would have looked nice on the papers for a day or two. Cameron, though said thanks but no thanks.


The torys are changing and Labour are worried about it.

 

[Life After Bobby]

I did read your post carefully. The implication, no the actual statment, was that those that are somehow 'born into generations of power' have less of a right to rule than those that have come to it recently.

You said:

"Does being a toff mean that you are somehow inferior politically?"

I said:
"The answer is no of course"

I'll keep it simple. At no point have i said "those that are somehow 'born into generations of power' have less of a right to rule"

I believe in a meritocracy. I also believe that people who have been brought up in families built on generations of privilege frequently - although not in all cases - see themselves, and are often seen in, as being more equal than others. The implication being that they are more capable of being in a position not reached purely on merit.

Separately, my starting point was basically pointing out that Tony Blair is not a toff. The definition i was using of toff is a member of the upper classes.

Tony Blair is not a member of the upper classes.

David Cameron is.

 

[attila]

ON A GENERAL ELECTION

The accursed power which stand on Privelege
(And goes with Women, and Champagne, and Bridge)
Broke - and Democracy resumed her reign
(Which goes with Bridge, and Women, and Champagne)

- HILAIRE BELLOC

 

[Buzzer]

You said:

"Does being a toff mean that you are somehow inferior politically?"

I said:
"The answer is no of course"

I'll keep it simple. At no point have i said "those that are somehow 'born into generations of power' have less of a right to rule"

I believe in a meritocracy. I also believe that people who have been brought up in families built on generations of privilege frequently - although not in all cases - see themselves, and are often seen in, as being more equal than others. The implication being that they are more capable of being in a position not reached purely on merit.

Separately, my starting point was basically pointing out that Tony Blair is not a toff. The definition i was using of toff is a member of the upper classes.

Tony Blair is not a member of the upper classes.

David Cameron is.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I do think that you are saying that David Cameron has less of a right than Phoney Bliar but I can see that I'm not going to persuade you and I don't think you're going to persuade me otherwise.

Nice to see people still care about who governs them though. Didn't more people vote in Big Brother or X factor final than in the European elections or some such shocking statistic.

 

[Life After Bobby]

Nice to see people still care about who governs them though. Didn't more people vote in Big Brother or X factor final than in the European elections or some such shocking statistic.

Agreed.

Timely addition Attila!

 

[Lankyseagull]

And Acid House Party?!

or Noel's House Party?!