The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[melias shoes]

This is exactly what I have said , NOBODY KNOWS, so to accuse either side of scaremongering, for addressing legitimate concerns strikes me as not having a strong enough argument to counter it.

As for my own view, the outers seem to have far more faith in our European partners, than me, I think, if we vote out, things will get very , very vindictive, very quickly, abd closing The Jungle, and let all those migrants cross the Channel will only be the start of it.Trade tariffs, the European banks moving out of the City, countries outside the EU withdrawing investment in the UK,under pressure from the EU, and Scotland demanding independence. It really is a whole can of worms that will be opened.

Stop it you're scaring me.

 

[lawros left foot]

Stop it you're scaring me.

WE'RE ALL DOOOMED, I TELLS YA, DOOMED I SAY

 

[Pavilionaire]

The EU project is already well on the way to going tits up. With the European economy in poor health, shrinking market share, an underlying unresolved Euro crisis dragging it down, an ongoing migrant crisis threatening European security, undermining societal cohesiveness, fermenting nationalism/ extremism, plus having no control on limiting EU migration to our shores driving down wages and limiting opportunities for many of our fellow citizens, serious issues around self governance/ democratic accountability I think future generations may well ask why a once proud independent nation who as you say has led the EU nations in growth, .... low inflation, low interest rates, record employment levels and good inward investment. Didn't seize the opportunity to leave with both hands.

Unlike the project fear predictions all of the above has happened or is happening today. Better off in my ars*!

It was only a matter of time before India and China got their shit together so I don't buy the shrinking market share argument as an indicator of failure. I'm not convinced about the nationalism argument either - which countries are breaking up?

Europe has some serious issues to resolve but nothing that can't be fixed.

 

[Soulman]

The price of human dignity for the tens of thousands of economic migrants now living in Greece has been calculated by the European Union (EU) to equal large amounts of taxpayer cash stuffed into envelopes and distributed amongst those it believes qualify as most in need.


Under a new EU aid plan, a large part of its £550million disaster fund will be given directly to migrants in hard cash to spend as they wish to help keep their “dignity” intact and save them from having to queue at volunteer aid agencies. They can then use the funds to spend as they wish and not account for any of it


Christos Stylianides, the EU humanitarian aid commissioner, said he believed migrants should have the option of buying things themselves and his suggestion contradicts internal European Commission documents warning about “corruption and security risks”

www.breitbart.com/london/2016/03/03/eu-to-hand-migrants-cash-in-envelopes-to-maintain-their-dignity/


http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...h-in-most-bizarre-twist-to-migrant-crisis-yet

 

[The Rivet]

I'm disgusted at the opinion of some, their views of our ability and inventiveness. Do we view ourselves with the assumption that we are too weak to fight and object? We, the British that has delivered to the world some awe inspiring advances? Sometimes paying a pound or two more for something (like we do already in comparison to the rest of the EU) in the shops, holidays or whatever is cheap in comparison to the prize. Sovereignty. Unless of course you think 'self' instead of country.

 

[jimhigham]

Another idea to be lobbed into the thought pool (ploip!)

Cameron has been admirably brave in actually offering a referendum to the British public however; that is where my admiration of him on this issue ends. In terms of his negotiation and subsequent deal, I believe that he has unwittingly pushed the nation much closer to choosing "out". The single defining issue that concerns most people appears to be immigration: an issue which the deal does not even touch. The deal that has been obtained pertains to issues that are almost negligible in most peoples' minds. It is possible that this deal will underscore just how powerless the country is in the face of the EU and will vote accordingly. Early polling, while varied, certainly hasn't swung behind Cameron.

This brings me to another interesting point. What happens if we do vote "out"? The collective EU establishment has been vocal in suggesting that this is a one-time vote, that it will be binding and that there will be no possibility of further negotiation in the event of our asking for Brexit. As one of the leading nations paying into the EU I find it very hard to believe that it will be prepared to let us leave so readily. The EU also proved itself unable to accept the "no" votes of The Netherlands and Ireland when they failed to agree constitutional change required by new treaties. Financial inducements were offered until the "correct" answer was obtained.

If we do vote for Brexit, I strongly suspect that the real negotiations would begin. The EU will struggle to even afford to lose the UK and may be forced back to the negotiating table to make a better offer. It would be one hell of a high risk strategy on our part but it could well lead to a more meaningful deal being offered.

 

[The Birdman]

If we pull out of Europe do you really think the French will continue to put up with the refugees in the Calais camps no they won't we will be flooded is not scare tactics it's what will happen.

 

[cunning fergus]

The EU has promoted workers rights in terms of paid holiday and maternity leave. The farming industry benefits from being in the EU from subsidies etc. and arguably a larger mobile labour market is more able to easily organise itself against big business.

Then there are aspects such as EU legislation with respect to the environment. Take air quality, typically the worst areas of AQ are in areas where working classes live. The EU is trying to improve AQ.

The EU also funds projects that may not otherwise occur, I.e. distribution of wealth.

I'm not saying that the EU is a socialist utopia, but there are benefits.

Also any self respecting tory would love to be in the EU with the vast free libertarian market it provides. IDS wanting out shows he doesn't care for this just a socialist stooge.

So in exchange for the low skilled having to suffer stagnating wages, and the implications of competing with millions of immigrants for housing, schools etc. they get paid holiday and maternity. No doubt that is a vote winner.

And we're supposed to be pleased about protectionist subsidies, to keep farmers goods higher and avoid competition from poorer markets? Some 40% of the EU budget is given to farmers.......you think this is good?

This distribution of wealth thingy, what the f*ck is that about? British taxpayers giving more money to other countries and then we are told we can't afford to train our own nurses? Who wants is accountable to the British taxpayers in the EU for the distribution of our money?

As I see it there are only a couple of countries weighing into the EU, and the U.K. Govt is literally just giving our money away.

There is nothing remotely beneficial to the British taxpayer, I am amazed you think this is a benefit.

 

[Buzzer]

I don't think it's fair to bat away the view of these economists. As it says this is the consensus view and one even granted by out-er economists. Besides, there can only be one pre-eminent British economic historian so that has to count for something. I guess I'm a sucker for highly respected opinions.

I don't know if this has been posted and apologies if it has but I couldn't help but pick up on this comment of yours. Here's a world-renowned economist giving his expert views on UK trading with Europe if we vote to leave.

"Echoing Cameron, proponents for Europe say that Britain will incur severe economic costs by leaving the European Union. Britain’s trade with Europe will collapse, they say, and the City of London will lose its preeminence. Claims of dire consequences by business executives are particularly unreliable. In 1999, Adair Turner, then director general of the Confederation of Business and Industry supported Britain joining the euro. Now the number crunchers torture the data to show that British productivity could decline precipitously. This is economic nonsense."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...s-johnson-is-right-about-europe-a6909811.html

He also ticks another important box for you - neutrality/independence - he's an ex-IMF assistant director, ex World Bank, a Princeton professor from India who now works for Bruegel in Europe, a think-tank whose mission statement is a commitment to impartiality, openness and excellence. And it's from the Independent, hardly a torch-bearer for the OUT campaign.

 

[pastafarian]

If we pull out of Europe do you really think the French will continue to put up with the refugees in the Calais camps no they won't we will be flooded is not scare tactics it's what will happen.

It’s a strange one this issue which says the French are going to leave the Calais borders unmanned and let the migrants just waltz across to the UK.
Millions have been spent by the french (by us as well) on a wall preventing access to the Eurontunnel and the ferries.
God knows how much has been spent on clearing parts of the jungle and managing the new centre.
And all of this is suddenly going to be abandoned?

You would have thought that the companies and unions involved in these part French owned companies would demand the french authorities up the policing of the hoards of migrants that would be attracted to allow them to legitimately carry on their business and also allow all the workers to be allowed to work in safety,rather than their businesses be flooded by people illegally trying to get in the country.(remembering there are fines for hauliers and companies bringing illegals into the UK)

I suppose when the tunnel and the ferries become too dangerous to operate safely and are forced to shut down with the loss of thousands of French jobs the french ministers who have threatened this will simply hold up their hands and say C'est la vie……blame the English for leaving the EU.

funny old world.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

If we pull out of Europe do you really think the French will continue to put up with the refugees in the Calais camps no they won't we will be flooded is not scare tactics it's what will happen.

Easy to forget we already have 300,000+ people in this country with no status, illegals who got in to this country over the years. They are simply scaremongering people again. France has a legal agreement with us which is totally separate to the EU. They wouldn't rip an agreement just like that, otherwise they would have done it years ago, secondly this government along with the French have spent millions securing Calais. End of story. Cameron will get hollande to say anything so he gets the result he wants. Don't be fooled, don't let this bullshit override the real mess of the EU

 

[pb21]

...

 

[pb21]

So in exchange for the low skilled having to suffer stagnating wages, and the implications of competing with millions of immigrants for housing, schools etc. they get paid holiday and maternity. No doubt that is a vote winner.

And we're supposed to be pleased about protectionist subsidies, to keep farmers goods higher and avoid competition from poorer markets? Some 40% of the EU budget is given to farmers.......you think this is good?

This distribution of wealth thingy, what the f*ck is that about? British taxpayers giving more money to other countries and then we are told we can't afford to train our own nurses? Who wants is accountable to the British taxpayers in the EU for the distribution of our money?

As I see it there are only a couple of countries weighing into the EU, and the U.K. Govt is literally just giving our money away.

There is nothing remotely beneficial to the British taxpayer, I am amazed you think this is a benefit.

So staying in the EU is bad because it is protectionist and not based on a free market but leaving the EU is a good idea because we can be more protectionist and avoid the free market?

Also the EU funds projects across the EU including in the UK, not just other countries.

http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/the-eu-near-me

I think it's far more complex than you are making out.

 

[cunning fergus]

So staying in the EU is bad because it is protectionist and not based on a free market but leaving the EU is a good idea because we can be more protectionist and avoid the free market?

Also the EU funds projects across the EU including in the UK, not just other countries.

http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/the-eu-near-me

I think it's far more complex than you are making out.

You keep arguing that these issues are complex, the general principles are not at all. The CAP is essentially a tax we all pay to ensure farming products remain high. EU taxpayers essentially get stung twice, firstly for a contribution to CAP, and secondly because farming goods are disproportionately higher than they should be.

This is not in either the taxpayers interest, or the consumers interest. I am all for controlling markets, not extortion.

http://www.reformthecap.eu/cap-reform-in-a-nutshell

What makes it more galling is the UK taxpayers contribute more to the EU than most other countries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...w-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html

The EU does not have any money of its own, it's ours we gave it to them, I don't see why anyone should be pointing to where the EU has directed some of that money back as if it's a benefit?

It's a disgraceful con..........we contribute MORE than we get back.

Unless you are arguing that UK taxpayers are benefitting from giving money to Romania to build infrastructure or to Polish farmers, is that really what you are saying?

 

[The Birdman]

Easy to forget we already have 300,000+ people in this country with no status, illegals who got in to this country over the years. They are simply scaremongering people again. France has a legal agreement with us which is totally separate to the EU. They wouldn't rip an agreement just like that, otherwise they would have done it years ago, secondly this government along with the French have spent millions securing Calais. End of story. Cameron will get hollande to say anything so he gets the result he wants. Don't be fooled, don't let this bullshit override the real mess of the EU

when do the french do what is legal if the French pepole want to move on the refugees they will like french Fishermen farmers ferry workers etc.as for in or out I am still on the fence my heart says out my head says in. I been to several debates and it very hard to know what's best. It will be decided by the 10ish % of voters who have undecided which way to swing/ vote.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

when do the french do what is legal if the French pepole want to move on the refugees they will like french Fishermen farmers ferry workers etc.as for in or out I am still on the fence my heart says out my head says in. I been to several debates and it very hard to know what's best. It will be decided by the 10ish % of voters who have undecided which way to swing/ vote.

Just dont think they would suddenly rip up a legal agreement. I do agree though it will be the 10% who decide what way we go here.

 

[brighton fella]

So staying in the EU is bad because it is protectionist and not based on a free market but leaving the EU is a good idea because we can be more protectionist and avoid the free market?

Also the EU funds projects across the EU including in the UK, not just other countries.

http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/the-eu-near-me

I think it's far more complex than you are making out.

.

funny how whenever there is a valid argument put against the EU the person usually defending it (yourself in this case) quote's just how complex the whole thing is....an excuse that could be used to back up anyone's side of an argument... .a kop out in other words..

finally.. get it right the EU funds absolutely nothing at all, it is tax payers money that funds things you loon not the EU.

 

[pb21]

.

funny how whenever there is a valid argument put against the EU the person usually defending it (yourself in this case) quote's just how complex the whole thing is....an excuse that could be used to back up anyone's side of an argument... .a kop out in other words..

finally.. get it right the EU funds absolutely nothing at all, it is tax payers money that funds things you loon not the EU.

Of course there are valid arguments against the EU, I don't think anyone thinks its perfect!

My saying how complex it is, is a direct response to cunning fergus who thinks those that want to stay in the EU are free market capitalists, those who want out aren't advocates of state socialism, that staying in the EU is bad because it removes the benefits of a free market with respect to farming, but wants to leave the EU so that we don't have to be a part of the free market! They're is so much contradiction in what they are saying, that is why I was saying it is more complicated!

Still you jumped on one sentence to suit your own agenda, well done!

Oh yes and I am obviously a loon too, well done on that insult too, bravo!

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Of course there are valid arguments against the EU, I don't think anyone thinks its perfect!

My saying how complex it is, is a direct response to cunning fergus who thinks those that want to stay in the EU are free market capitalists, those who want out aren't advocates of state socialism, that staying in the EU is bad because it removes the benefits of a free market with respect to farming, but wants to leave the EU so that we don't have to be a part of the free market! They're is so much contradiction in what they are saying, that is why I was saying it is more complicated!

Still you jumped on one sentence to suit your own agenda, well done!

Oh yes and I am obviously a loon too, well done on that insult too, bravo!

Well said. I am sure you already understand how simple the decisions seem to be for those wanting Out, and how they feel that anyone disagreeing with them is hopelessly deluded. (You got away lightly with being called a loon. I'm a wet dreams Tory according to one poster on this thread, and a liar who approves of terrible crimes according to another.)

As you say, the EU is not perfect. But those who consider Remainers to be fools should consider the view of a man who knows it inside out and who has every reason to dislike it, Yanis Varoufakis. In spite of being one of its harshest and most outspoken critics, he is unequivocally in favour of the UK, like Greece, remaining in the EU and helping to reform it from the inside. I do look forward to hearing him talking in Brighton in May.

Many of us disagree with a lot of what he has said but his position shows it is possible to be a quiet and considered remainer. Some of the posters on here willt consider him to be a lying fascist of course.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If we pull out of Europe do you really think the French will continue to put up with the refugees in the Calais camps no they won't we will be flooded is not scare tactics it's what will happen.

One of the main arguments from the out campaign is for the Uk to take control of its own borders. And Uk borders are in the Uk. Why would the French then be involved? Anyway, I guess the leader of France probably knows more about what France will do than we do.....