The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Soulman]

Dutch voters have demanded an in-out referendum on the Netherland’s membership in the European Union, amid growing fears that the entire European project is about to collapse.
With Britain due to hold a June 23 referendum, other countries are preparing for an imminent exit in the event that Britain leaves.
In a new opinion poll in the Netherlands, a majority of voters said they backed the country having its own in/out referendum on EU membership, similar to the UK vote.
And Czech Republic prime minister Bohuslav Sobotka has warned if Britons do decide to leave the EU, a ‘Czexit’ could follow.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I thought one of the main measures of any democratic process is how well our views are represented and acted on. You may not like the look of some of our MP's or feel a greater affiliation to Europe but that doesn't change the arithmetic. Even if all of our elected representatives could speak with one voice in Europe and did turn up they could still be outvoted and completely ignored.

I suppose we need to have the matching data for other countries' MEPs before we can be sure that everyone else is ganging up on us.

 

[5ways]

I know there are as many opinions as there are economists but at least Mody is neutral and has some scientific analysis to his arguments. Sorry but to me your argument is almost entirely conjecture and it comes with a huge slice of wishful thinking. I think you're also very wrong in big parts. Where is Greece's enhanced prosperity? What do you mean by enhanced security? Is France a safer country than Norway by virtue of being in the EU? I don't think so. It's far too broad a subject to give any definitive answer to.

The governance structure will not always be unequal? Oh really. What makes you say that?

Once the EU gets over its teething problems? It's been around for nearly 60 years. It's not some ship just set sail and we're threatening to jump ship before its left port. It's a fully mature system.

For the average European the social and economic prosperity ushered in by the free market has certainly been a boon. Greece broke the rules and was punished, severely - too much so - for it. If they had played by the rules to which they agreed their rapid economic growth following accession may not have entirely evaporated. Security is enhanced firstly because Europe hasn't not gone to war with itself, which was the first aim of the EU. Secondly it creates a united front against Russian (or whoever else) sphere of influence brooding. Closer cooperation and information sharing certainly increases internal security. Take the European Arrest Warrant for example.

The EU isn't a properly federal model so it is not equal in the same way the US system is. But you can see the similarities of having senators and having an equally weighted Commissioner from each country and a proportional parliament.

60 years is quite a short term in the lifetime of a typical state. Whatever the final form of the EU it will emerge slowly. The US is hardly 300 years old, and that is not yet a mature political system! This is going to take time to get right but looking at it from the longue durée the fundamentals are right. I'm voting in for the next generation, and generations to come.

 

[Buzzer]

For the average European the social and economic prosperity ushered in by the free market has certainly been a boon. Greece broke the rules and was punished, severely - too much so - for it. If they had played by the rules to which they agreed their rapid economic growth following accession may not have entirely evaporated. Security is enhanced firstly because Europe hasn't not gone to war with itself, which was the first aim of the EU. Secondly it creates a united front against Russian (or whoever else) sphere of influence brooding. Closer cooperation and information sharing certainly increases internal security. Take the European Arrest Warrant for example.

The EU isn't a properly federal model so it is not equal in the same way the US system is. But you can see the similarities of having senators and having an equally weighted Commissioner from each country and a proportional parliament.

60 years is quite a short term in the lifetime of a typical state. The US is hardly 300 years old, and that is not yet a mature political system! This is going to take time to get right but looking at it from the longue durée the fundamentals are right. I'm voting in for the next generation, and generations to come.

Greece were under enormous pressure to join the Euro, they cooked the books and Germany and France turned a blind eye in return for the Greeks taking out huge loans for weapons they didn't need. Even once in the Euro, they still failed the economic benchmarks and were therefore doomed to fail. It certainly wouldn't have all the debts that it does have if it had kept the drachma. With regards to Russia, we can still put on a united front outside of the EU as all of Europe did with South Africa, North Korea, Iraq. I don't believe that EU membership is a prerequisite.

Your talk of a federal Europe scares me. It just won't work as it does in the US because you need a common language and a common culture. America is one country and the states within are not comparable to European countries. This is the problem with a one-size fits all Euro rate trying to accommodate the needs of the Southern Europeans who have different problems to the North Europeans and different ways of dealing with these issues. And the push for a federal Europe is borne out of a desire for increased political powers rather than addressing a need.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree matey.

 

[5ways]

Greece were under enormous pressure to join the Euro, they cooked the books and Germany and France turned a blind eye in return for the Greeks taking out huge loans for weapons they didn't need. Even once in the Euro, they still failed the economic benchmarks and were therefore doomed to fail. It certainly wouldn't have all the debts that it does have if it had kept the drachma. With regards to Russia, we can still put on a united front outside of the EU as all of Europe did with South Africa, North Korea, Iraq. I don't believe that EU membership is a prerequisite.

Your talk of a federal Europe scares me. It just won't work as it does in the US because you need a common language and a common culture. America is one country and the states within are not comparable to European countries. This is the problem with a one-size fits all Euro rate trying to accommodate the needs of the Southern Europeans who have different problems to the North Europeans and different ways of dealing with these issues. And the push for a federal Europe is borne out of a desire for increased political powers rather than addressing a need.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree matey.

I'm not advocating a federal model but what I'm saying is that the political system is volatile partly because it is young. The US system still has major philosophical questions to sort out about what type of government they want. With regards to language and culture, just as an aside for fun I've been told that Indian states differ more dramatically than European ones do in terms of culture and religion etc. They also have a wide mix of languages. You're right about the culture clash between north and south. The UK staying in strengthens the Northern hand which is good for everyone. Over time though, I believe, the kinks can be smoothed out. Those that have grown up with the EU will hopefully want to make it work and see it as part of their core identity.

Agreeing to disagree I think is the default setting for this whole thread

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I suppose we need to have the matching data for other countries' MEPs before we can be sure that everyone else is ganging up on us.

I wasn't saying everyone was ganging up on us just disputing the quite extraordinary suggestion that the EU's democratic legitimacy/process is in any way superior to our own.

 

[jgmcdee]

I thought one of the main measures of any democratic process is how well our views are represented and acted on.

Depends on who you include in "our". If you are including the entire population of the EU (aka the electorate) then sure. If you are just taking a subset (red-haired people, those whose name have the letter 'k' in them, the population of the United Kingdom) then no that isn't any recognised measure of democracy.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Depends on who you include in "our". If you are including the entire population of the EU (aka the electorate) then sure. If you are just taking a subset (red-haired people, those whose name have the letter 'k' in them, the population of the United Kingdom) then no that isn't any recognised measure of democracy.

'Our' = the UK which for many posters seems to be a redundant concept to be forgotten and derided as we enter a new utopian era of a European hegemony oblivious to reality/facts on the ground. By the way assuming you can dislodge your nominally splintered posterior off the fence which way are you likely to vote ....

 

[jgmcdee]

'Our' = the UK which for many posters seems to be a redundant concept to be forgotten and derided as we enter a new utopian era of a European hegemony oblivious to reality/facts on the ground.

Or recognised as part of a larger whole with appropriate representation, in much the same way as counties make up England and countries make up the United Kingdom.

By the way assuming you can dislodge your nominally splintered posterior off the fence which way are you likely to vote ....

As you asked so nicely, I'm likely to vote to stay in.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Or recognised as part of a larger whole with appropriate representation, in much the same way as counties make up England and countries make up the United Kingdom.

Indeed, according to some people we are merely a region within a developing Superstate I applaud their belated honesty .

As you asked so nicely, I'm likely to vote to stay in.

Your sniping from the sidelines (aimed in only one direction) was wearing a bit thin. Staying in .... Quelle surprise.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

UK future 'may be brighter outside EU', says BCC boss

"The dynamism and resilience of the City of London and the UK business sector suggests to me that, in the long run, we have the capacity and capability to create a bright, if not brighter, economic future outside of the EU - just as we would have done had we had the opportunity to stay in a truly reformed Europe," Mr Longworth said.

Apparently dissent is not to be tolerated .....

The director-general of the British Chambers of Commerce has been suspended over his personal views on Brexit, according to the Financial Times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35732291

 

[Soulman]

UK future 'may be brighter outside EU', says BCC boss

"The dynamism and resilience of the City of London and the UK business sector suggests to me that, in the long run, we have the capacity and capability to create a bright, if not brighter, economic future outside of the EU - just as we would have done had we had the opportunity to stay in a truly reformed Europe," Mr Longworth said.

Apparently dissent is not to be tolerated .....

The director-general of the British Chambers of Commerce has been suspended over his personal views on Brexit, according to the Financial Times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35732291

Saw this story on the ITV news, although they did move swiftly on..........surprisingly

 

[jgmcdee]

Your sniping from the sidelines (aimed in only one direction) was wearing a bit thin. Staying in .... Quelle surprise.

This was my first contribution to this thread. Elsewhere I've commented when someone said something that interested for me enough to find the numbers, and asked questions when the position put forward by people flew in the face of the facts as I understood them. I haven't found any useful information on the contribution that EU membership either adds to or removes from the UK economy, so don't have anything to say on that point. If it turns out that the questionable points and outright misinformation comes from one side rather than they other then that's hardly my fault.

My reasons for voting to stay in the EU are a mix of social, economic and personal views but there is little hard fact involved in most areas. We can't definitively say if we would have been better off in or out of the EU, in the same way we can't definitively say if we will be better off in or out of the EU. If there was an obvious choice to make then it wouldn't require a referendum.

 

[GT49er]

Over the last European Parliamentary term (2009-14), a majority of British MEPs (across UK party lines) opposed 576 motions out of a total 1,936 that were put before the Parliament.

Of those 576 motions, 485 were nonetheless approved by the rest of the Parliament despite the opposition of a majority of British MEPs. This is a failure rate of 84 per cent.

Brilliant. Those two lines alone is reason enough to vote for Brexit.

 

[cunning fergus]

Of course there are valid arguments against the EU, I don't think anyone thinks its perfect!

My saying how complex it is, is a direct response to cunning fergus who thinks those that want to stay in the EU are free market capitalists, those who want out aren't advocates of state socialism, that staying in the EU is bad because it removes the benefits of a free market with respect to farming, but wants to leave the EU so that we don't have to be a part of the free market! They're is so much contradiction in what they are saying, that is why I was saying it is more complicated!

Still you jumped on one sentence to suit your own agenda, well done!

Oh yes and I am obviously a loon too, well done on that insult too, bravo!

Let's be clear, the EU is a primarly capitalist dream wholly managed by a group of unelected technocrats who are in thrall to the interests of global business. A free labour market allows global business, (and local business) to benefit from cheap labour that can move to a wealthy UK from poor EU countries.

This helps businesses profit, but local labour suffers from disproportionate competition. This poor and low skilled suffer the worst.

If this was not a FACT the Labour Party would not have said they would introduce a law preventing undercutting of pay.

The CAP represents the very worst form of market protectionism, the poor once again are penalised by having to pay higher prices than they should for farm goods. I said previously they pay twice, in future they could pay 3 times.....

1) CAP is essentially money the EU distributes to farmers from net paying countries taxpayers, in short, poor countries taxpayers benefit richer countries taxpayers don't;
2) higher prices for farm goods, because the EU is creating a false market we all pay higher prices for food, I acting on the poor disproportionately;
3) VAT,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-on-food-medicine-and-childrens-clothing.html

There is nothing remotely contradictory (or complex) in opposing the free movement of labour or CAP on grounds that it disadvantages the British working class.

Until the British working class argue for in because they want greater competition for work resulting in lower pay, and equally support higher food prices I will call out those who oppose this position as Tories.

Nothing complex there n'est pas?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

UK future 'may be brighter outside EU', says BCC boss

"The dynamism and resilience of the City of London and the UK business sector suggests to me that, in the long run, we have the capacity and capability to create a bright, if not brighter, economic future outside of the EU - just as we would have done had we had the opportunity to stay in a truly reformed Europe," Mr Longworth said.

Apparently dissent is not to be tolerated .....

The director-general of the British Chambers of Commerce has been suspended over his personal views on Brexit, according to the Financial Times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35732291

He wasn't suspended because he is a Brexiter. He was suspended because he went against the organisation's agreed stance of neutrality. In other words, exactly the same would have happened if he had expressed pro-Europe views.

 

[pb21]

Until the British working class argue for in because they want greater competition for work resulting in lower pay, and equally support higher food prices I will call out those who oppose this position as Tories.

I think I understand where you are coming from now. IDS isnt an advocate of state socialism he is an advocate, like you, of fascism?

In which case the situation is quite simple and like you say not complicated.

 

[sir albion]

UK future 'may be brighter outside EU', says BCC boss

"The dynamism and resilience of the City of London and the UK business sector suggests to me that, in the long run, we have the capacity and capability to create a bright, if not brighter, economic future outside of the EU - just as we would have done had we had the opportunity to stay in a truly reformed Europe," Mr Longworth said.

Apparently dissent is not to be tolerated .....

The director-general of the British Chambers of Commerce has been suspended over his personal views on Brexit, according to the Financial Times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35732291

Let's be honest unless it's money orientated we have no reason to stay,but saying that I'm sure this country would be far better off out and it's certainly a gamble worth taking.
The EU is holding us up and restricting us and have no interest bar our money.

 

[sir albion]

He wasn't suspended because he is a Brexiter. He was suspended because he went against the organisation's agreed stance of neutrality. In other words, exactly the same would have happened if he had expressed pro-Europe views.

"Long term prospects Could be brighter outside the EU"

That states his opinion and view me thinks

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Let's be honest unless it's money orientated we have no reason to stay,but saying that I'm sure this country would be far better off out and it's certainly a gamble worth taking.
The EU is holding us up and restricting us and have no interest bar our money.

I think it is absolutely appalling to talk about this purely in terms of money. It ignores any historical, philosophical or political reasons to stay in.

There was an excellent article in the Observer last week from an interview with David Liddington (?spelling), the Conservative Europe Minister, who has been in post for six years. One of the points that he was making, which many people ignore, is the prevention of war in Europe stuff. he cited the example of a conversation that he had with the Prime Minister of one of the recently incoming Eastern Bloc states - I can't remember which one - where his interlocutor had stressed how important that is.

Anyone who says, like the UKIP MEP on question Time this week, that the prevention of war in Europe for the last 70 years has had nothing to do with the European Union but is down to NATO is talking through their anal orifice.