The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Pavilionaire]

The problem with the 'STAY' campaign is that it cannot say life will be better in the future because we're already in. It can only say that life might get worse if we leave, and this will always be spun as scaremongering whether genuine or otherwise.

Only the 'LEAVE' campaign has a positive message to peddle, albeit one that is based on pure speculation.

I'm already getting fed up with being drip-fed Brexit "fears" - today's was that if we exit then France might open the gates to the Calais migrants seeking to come to the UK.

The "STAY" campaign really needs to up its game and get positive stories into the media, they need to demonstrate with real examples of how EU membership has had a direct positive impact on job creation. I have no doubt that media-friendly figures like Farage and Boris Johnson will have no difficulty in selling the "LEAVE" angle, but I have my doubts as to whether Cameron and Osbourne can do the same for "STAY".

Only this week the story came out that 90% of the 650 Conservative Associations in each of the constituencies might shut as the party seek to curb the anti-EU feeling of Association chairmen and their grassroots members and the effect it might have on the election of the next Tory leader, i.e. Johnson ahead of Osbourne.

This is EXACTLY the sort of story that kills the "STAY" campaign. The door is wide open for the Labour leader to win back support for his party by championing the "STAY" cause in a positive and erudite way. Labour under Chuka Umunna or David Miliband would have another 15 points in the polls, it is a crying shame for British politics that Labour is now a serial elector of buffoons while all the good candidates run for cover.

 

[5ways]

Interestingly, a number of Polish nationals in this country have , when asked, expressed the opinion that they would vote LEAVE......

Which is quite interesting. I guess they've come, assimilated and now want to tamp down on extra competition. It's cold-blooded self-interest.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

The problem with the 'STAY' campaign is that it cannot say life will be better in the future because we're already in. It can only say that life might get worse if we leave, and this will always be spun as scaremongering whether genuine or otherwise.

Only the 'LEAVE' campaign has a positive message to peddle, albeit one that is based on pure speculation.

I'm already getting fed up with being drip-fed Brexit "fears" - today's was that if we exit then France might open the gates to the Calais migrants seeking to come to the UK.

The "STAY" campaign really needs to up its game and get positive stories into the media, they need to demonstrate with real examples of how EU membership has had a direct positive impact on job creation. I have no doubt that media-friendly figures like Farage and Boris Johnson will have no difficulty in selling the "LEAVE" angle, but I have my doubts as to whether Cameron and Osbourne can do the same for "STAY".

Only this week the story came out that 90% of the 650 Conservative Associations in each of the constituencies might shut as the party seek to curb the anti-EU feeling of Association chairmen and their grassroots members and the effect it might have on the election of the next Tory leader, i.e. Johnson ahead of Osbourne.

This is EXACTLY the sort of story that kills the "STAY" campaign. The door is wide open for the Labour leader to win back support for his party by championing the "STAY" cause in a positive and erudite way. Labour under Chuka Umunna or David Miliband would have another 15 points in the polls, it is a crying shame for British politics that Labour is now a serial elector of buffoons while all the good candidates run for cover.

all the pro EU camp can say is " could be worse off", well they'll never know either way until we leave the EU
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Which is quite interesting. I guess they've come, assimilated and now want to tamp down on extra competition. It's cold-blooded self-interest.

the Poles are like that
regards
DR

 

[pb21]

The problem with the 'STAY' campaign is that it cannot say life will be better in the future because we're already in. It can only say that life might get worse if we leave, and this will always be spun as scaremongering whether genuine or otherwise.

I think you are wrong here. Dave fought hard and secured MASSIVE changes to our relationship with the EU; so massive that he went from being anti EU to pro EU, like much of his cabinet. Things must be fundamentally different now and therefore will be better...

 

[5ways]

So say we Remain, in another five years we will still be talking about the same things, not enough homes, government cuts to services, and even more people coming to this country, we are just going around in cirles, and as every year passes things get slowly worse. This country has gone stale, Leave the EU I feel like it would be a new start.

I think you'll find it is a false dawn. There are apparently 500k homes which have been approved but are unbuilt, the highest ever. House builders are keeping the supply low and prices high. Government cuts happen because we cannot match tax to spending. Higher tax returns= more services. Our economic interest is staying in the EU. If we leave we will lose investment and jobs, further straining government coffers. Brexit is not a panacea for any of the problems you outline.

 

[pastafarian]

Okay, but haven't submitted anything formally. Less than one year strikes me as not enough time to extricate themselves from the treaty. Why have they left it so late? What have they been doing for the past 2 years? I know the EU said its all or nothing with respect to the 4 freedoms......have Switzerland had to accept this?

There is plenty going on,The Swiss will put forward a motion to its parliament in march concerning an escape clause in its treaties with the EU that would allow them to curb admissions of EU workers.
The EU are looking at the legality of this,but have warned them Switzerland would be hurt financially.

The Swiss have been told negotiations are now on hold until after the UK referendum as we don’t want want this side show influencing our outcome.

Its interesting to note The Swiss senate will now also vote to officially withdraw its EU membership application and conduct its negotiations from a standpoint of an independent sovereign nation and not a country that was always regarded as wanting to join the EU.

So yes time is very tight,but they havnt been sitting on their thumbs doing nothing for two years,its not a debate that is widely reported over here,you have to scratch around a bit,which is a shame for something that is so important regards its outcome to everyone in the EU

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-swiss-idUSKCN0VZ1OU

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-swiss-europe-bilateral-idUKKBN0U426N20151221

 

[5ways]

all the pro EU camp can say is " could be worse off", well they'll never know either way until we leave the EU
regards
DR

You make it sound like you haven't read the Government's paper published recently and discussed here

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...Accessible.pdf

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I think you'll find it is a false dawn. There are apparently 500k homes which have been approved but are unbuilt, the highest ever. House builders are keeping the supply low and prices high. Government cuts happen because we cannot match tax to spending. Higher tax returns= more services. Our economic interest is staying in the EU. If we leave we will lose investment and jobs, further straining government coffers. Brexit is not a panacea for any of the problems you outline.

What about our quality of life at the end of all this? our space, our freedom, our culture do you value this? We are one of the most densely populated countries in the EU now. Sometimes life is not just about money.

 

[heathgate]

Which is quite interesting. I guess they've come, assimilated and now want to tamp down on extra competition. It's cold-blooded self-interest.

Just like those who want the rest of us to tow the line according to their own specific agenda... Merkel?

 

[pastafarian]

What about our quality of life at the end of all this? our space, our freedom, our culture do you value this? We are one of the most densely populated countries in the EU now. Sometimes life is not just about money.

quite right

The EU is a big business and big bank gang bang scrapping over the £`s $`s and Euros profits.
These people do not value anything you have mentioned.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

quite right

The EU is a big business and big bank gang bang scrapping over the £`s $`s and Euros profits.
These people do not value anything you have mentioned.

I SAID THIS AGES AGO, IT'S ALL SELF INTEREST AND I'M ALRIGHT JACK
regards
DR

 

[vegster]

Leave feels the right thing for me. If you say it is going to get worse whatever happens, then we need to drop some of things that are contributing to it, the EU and the silly rules being one of them.

A lot of the " Silly Rules " involve protection and rights for workers, which business's says costs money ie: reduces their profits. Will the employers try to redistribute the extra profits in wages ? I won't hold my breath.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

What about our quality of life at the end of all this? our space, our freedom, our culture do you value this? We are one of the most densely populated countries in the EU now. Sometimes life is not just about money.

I'd say having the whole of Europe available to you to live, work and travel with a single passport and zero interference is freedom and an amazing quality of life. I really value freedom and opportunity so I'm in.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I'd say having the whole of Europe available to you to live, work and travel with a single passport and zero interference is freedom and an amazing quality of life. I really value freedom and opportunity so I'm in.

yes, that's what all the old eastern block country's were saying BEFORE THEY JOINED
regards
DR

 

[cunning fergus]

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I do think that the EU brings benefits for the working classes as well as all classes. There is more to the story than what you have posted, there are pros to staying in the EU from a working class perspective as well as negatives.

That's refreshing, however if you agree what benefits do the working class derive from the EU that offsets the disadvantages of lower pay and more pressure on housing and other public services?

Feel free to list a few of them so we can see if they are better than lower pay?

 

[vegster]

yes, that's what all the old eastern block country's were saying BEFORE THEY JOINED
regards
DR

Not many of them are rushing back to Mother Russia even now.

 

[cunning fergus]

It's like saying Iain Duncan Smith is actually a socialist as he wants to leave the EU

Its not though is it, IDS is not opposed to the EU because of the plight of the working class or the subservience of the EU to global corporate interests. His opposition is about the supremacy of Parliament, a reasonable position in its own regard I would say.

There are some honourable Labour MPs that will vote out because of the same point (e.g. Dennis Skinner) plus the impact of free labour market on the working class. Not as many as there should be, and as there was in the 70s and 80s when Labour were deeply sceptical of the aims of the EEC.

Sadly Blair, Mandelson et al changed that, as they did clause IV so they were no socialists.

They were Tories.

 

[cunning fergus]

I think you're taking this out of context. Obviously ANY increase in pay is good in isolation, but isolation doesn't always exist. For example, if there is a shortage of maths teachers their pay should rise and we would have to pay the bill (which most of us would be happy to). It there is a shortage of skilled car assembly workers in the north east then their pay will rise and factory costs would increase and Nissan Renault might decide to make their next model in France. Similarly, if I, as a self-employed person, increased my pay I would quite quickly stop earning anything at all.

(I am not defending anything, promoting rabid exploitation, saying that workers are paid too much and that M&S bosses are paid too little; I'm just making a passing reference to reality, which was probably what Mr Rose was doing.)

Your interpretation lays heavy here doesn't it, despite evidence that HSBC and Stuart Rose indicating that wages could rise, you are immediately throwing up conjecture about what this REALLY means.

Sometimes you just need to believe your eyes.

 

[jimhigham]

Alright. I'll put in my tuppence worth and set myself up for a flaming.

I can see the appeal of an "out" vote. I really can. There is something fundamentally appealing about being able to assume control of our collective destiny. This appeal doubles when viewed through the prism of the current migration crisis and all of the uncertainty that it entails. I also worry about the "democratic deficit" at the heart of the EU: that the direction of travel in the EU has been determined by the political class with complete disregard for the wishes of the populace (e.g. Holland and Ireland essentially holding repeat referenda until the public provided the required response). In some of my more idealistic moments even I get a small frisson of excitement at the thought of our forging our own path.

However, I shall probably vote "in", albeit while holding my nose with a measure of distaste, for largely tactical reasons. This is something that I have not seen discussed in any of the referendum coverage to date. If the UK votes "out" it seems all but certain that this would lead to the Scots holding a further referendum on independence, which would likely see them leave the Union. As a left of centre, tree hugging, rhino cuddling kind of guy, I am currently reliant on the Scottish Nationalists to try and act as a bulwark against the worst excesses of the Tories (what with there being no effective opposition and all). With the SNP removed from the equation I find it hard to envisage Labour ever being able to form a government through English votes alone. This could mean a perpetual Tory government with little opposition and not bound by any form of EU regulation.

I shudder to think at what that world might be like. Unregulated markets, environmental protections eroded, the size of the State shrunken to that of a peanut... The UK could become a Darwinian feeding frenzy with the poorest among us thrown to the wolves (not literally before anybody accuses me of melodrama).

I genuinely understand why people might want out but for me, it's a reluctant in. Call it Project Fear if you like but those are my reasons.