The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Lincoln Imp]

Your interpretation lays heavy here doesn't it, despite evidence that HSBC and Stuart Rose indicating that wages could rise, you are immediately throwing up conjecture about what this REALLY means.

Sometimes you just need to believe your eyes.

I'm sorry, I haven't got the faintest clue what you are talking about.

 

[cunning fergus]

Yes, of course I have. I state this on a daily basis. FFS, you really are an idiot. And a boring one at that.

I know, your psychopathic lack of empathy for the British working class reminds me of a previous conservative British female PM.........name is on the tip of my tongue.

 

[lawros left foot]

Alright. I'll put in my tuppence worth and set myself up for a flaming.

I can see the appeal of an "out" vote. I really can. There is something fundamentally appealing about being able to assume control of our collective destiny. This appeal doubles when viewed through the prism of the current migration crisis and all of the uncertainty that it entails. I also worry about the "democratic deficit" at the heart of the EU: that the direction of travel in the EU has been determined by the political class with complete disregard for the wishes of the populace (e.g. Holland and Ireland essentially holding repeat referenda until the public provided the required response). In some of my more idealistic moments even I get a small frisson of excitement at the thought of our forging our own path.

However, I shall probably vote "in", albeit while holding my nose with a measure of distaste, for largely tactical reasons. This is something that I have not seen discussed in any of the referendum coverage to date. If the UK votes "out" it seems all but certain that this would lead to the Scots holding a further referendum on independence, which would likely see them leave the Union. As a left of centre, tree hugging, rhino cuddling kind of guy, I am currently reliant on the Scottish Nationalists to try and act as a bulwark against the worst excesses of the Tories (what with there being no effective opposition and all). With the SNP removed from the equation I find it hard to envisage Labour ever being able to form a government through English votes alone. This could mean a perpetual Tory government with little opposition and not bound by any form of EU regulation.

I shudder to think at what that world might be like. Unregulated markets, environmental protections eroded, the size of the State shrunken to that of a peanut... The UK could become a Darwinian feeding frenzy with the poorest among us thrown to the wolves (not literally before anybody accuses me of melodrama).

I genuinely understand why people might want out but for me, it's a reluctant in. Call it Project Fear if you like but those are my reasons.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I also wonder how any 'inners' can warn of the legitimate worries of leaving, without being accused by 'outers' of scaremongering. Surely, there are legitimate reasons leaving could go tits up, and the inners have a duty to warn us of these

 

[cunning fergus]

I think you're taking this out of context. Obviously ANY increase in pay is good in isolation, but isolation doesn't always exist. For example, if there is a shortage of maths teachers their pay should rise and we would have to pay the bill (which most of us would be happy to). It there is a shortage of skilled car assembly workers in the north east then their pay will rise and factory costs would increase and Nissan Renault might decide to make their next model in France. Similarly, if I, as a self-employed person, increased my pay I would quite quickly stop earning anything at all.

(I am not defending anything, promoting rabid exploitation, saying that workers are paid too much and that M&S bosses are paid too little; I'm just making a passing reference to reality, which was probably what Mr Rose was doing.)

Look at this load of twaddle man........"out of context" this, "I'm not defending anything" that and finally "which was probably what Mr Rose was doing".

He said wages would rise, this is what HSBC said would happen.

You want to explain this away because you don't want an out vote.

Then again you want controls on markets, but are happy to have no control on the British labour market...........unbelievable stuff.

 

[sir albion]

Alright. I'll put in my tuppence worth and set myself up for a flaming.

I can see the appeal of an "out" vote. I really can. There is something fundamentally appealing about being able to assume control of our collective destiny. This appeal doubles when viewed through the prism of the current migration crisis and all of the uncertainty that it entails. I also worry about the "democratic deficit" at the heart of the EU: that the direction of travel in the EU has been determined by the political class with complete disregard for the wishes of the populace (e.g. Holland and Ireland essentially holding repeat referenda until the public provided the required response). In some of my more idealistic moments even I get a small frisson of excitement at the thought of our forging our own path.

However, I shall probably vote "in", albeit while holding my nose with a measure of distaste, for largely tactical reasons. This is something that I have not seen discussed in any of the referendum coverage to date. If the UK votes "out" it seems all but certain that this would lead to the Scots holding a further referendum on independence, which would likely see them leave the Union. As a left of centre, tree hugging, rhino cuddling kind of guy, I am currently reliant on the Scottish Nationalists to try and act as a bulwark against the worst excesses of the Tories (what with there being no effective opposition and all). With the SNP removed from the equation I find it hard to envisage Labour ever being able to form a government through English votes alone. This could mean a perpetual Tory government with little opposition and not bound by any form of EU regulation.

I shudder to think at what that world might be like. Unregulated markets, environmental protections eroded, the size of the State shrunken to that of a peanut... The UK could become a Darwinian feeding frenzy with the poorest among us thrown to the wolves (not literally before anybody accuses me of melodrama).

I genuinely understand why people might want out but for me, it's a reluctant in. Call it Project Fear if you like but those are my reasons.

Fair opinion although British people have never really been ones to be fearful of change and sadly it seems many Brits are easily manipulated into fear and roll over these days.

Time to stand and get the "GREAT" back into Britain

 

[cunning fergus]

Alright. I'll put in my tuppence worth and set myself up for a flaming.

I can see the appeal of an "out" vote. I really can. There is something fundamentally appealing about being able to assume control of our collective destiny. This appeal doubles when viewed through the prism of the current migration crisis and all of the uncertainty that it entails. I also worry about the "democratic deficit" at the heart of the EU: that the direction of travel in the EU has been determined by the political class with complete disregard for the wishes of the populace (e.g. Holland and Ireland essentially holding repeat referenda until the public provided the required response). In some of my more idealistic moments even I get a small frisson of excitement at the thought of our forging our own path.

However, I shall probably vote "in", albeit while holding my nose with a measure of distaste, for largely tactical reasons. This is something that I have not seen discussed in any of the referendum coverage to date. If the UK votes "out" it seems all but certain that this would lead to the Scots holding a further referendum on independence, which would likely see them leave the Union. As a left of centre, tree hugging, rhino cuddling kind of guy, I am currently reliant on the Scottish Nationalists to try and act as a bulwark against the worst excesses of the Tories (what with there being no effective opposition and all). With the SNP removed from the equation I find it hard to envisage Labour ever being able to form a government through English votes alone. This could mean a perpetual Tory government with little opposition and not bound by any form of EU regulation.

I shudder to think at what that world might be like. Unregulated markets, environmental protections eroded, the size of the State shrunken to that of a peanut... The UK could become a Darwinian feeding frenzy with the poorest among us thrown to the wolves (not literally before anybody accuses me of melodrama).

I genuinely understand why people might want out but for me, it's a reluctant in. Call it Project Fear if you like but those are my reasons.

In short then, it's better to have The NHS privatised via TTIP as supported by Cameron in a back room deal as organised by the unaccountable EU Commission, than a trade deal set up by accountable MPs with full democratic transparency.

I can see your logic.

 

[sir albion]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I also wonder how any 'inners' can warn of the legitimate worries of leaving, without being accused by 'outers' of scaremongering. Surely, there are legitimate reasons leaving could go tits up, and the inners have a duty to warn us of these

So what if it goes tits up...We will grow and flourish again regardless like we always do.
You vote in and watch what new policies and changes the EU do as we'll be stuck with that lot from Brussels forever.

I'd rather we left and flourished and this is what I'm sure will happen if we do...Time for Brits to grow some balls for once instead of being soppy cry babies.

 

[pb21]

That's refreshing, however if you agree what benefits do the working class derive from the EU that offsets the disadvantages of lower pay and more pressure on housing and other public services?

Feel free to list a few of them so we can see if they are better than lower pay?

The EU has promoted workers rights in terms of paid holiday and maternity leave. The farming industry benefits from being in the EU from subsidies etc. and arguably a larger mobile labour market is more able to easily organise itself against big business.

Then there are aspects such as EU legislation with respect to the environment. Take air quality, typically the worst areas of AQ are in areas where working classes live. The EU is trying to improve AQ.

The EU also funds projects that may not otherwise occur, I.e. distribution of wealth.

I'm not saying that the EU is a socialist utopia, but there are benefits.

Also any self respecting tory would love to be in the EU with the vast free libertarian market it provides. IDS wanting out shows he doesn't care for this just a socialist stooge.

 

[melias shoes]

Fair opinion although British people have never really been ones to be fearful of change and sadly it seems many Brits are easily manipulated into fear and roll over these days.

Time to stand and get the "GREAT" back into Britain

The people of this country don't have a backbone anymore. They seem to listen to all the scaremongering and fear stories. It really is pathetic. Scare after scare. German minister today asked 'what would you do if Britain left the EU?His answer after a long pause ' I would cry. Yes of course they would cry because they would lose funding we provide . Also they are worried that Brexit would have a domino affectand see the EU fall apart.
Hollande today says there will be repercussions if we leave the EU . Is that a threat or more scare stories. The rest of the EU should leave us to make our own decisions. The French would miss our investment more than anyone.

 

[pastafarian]

I'd say having the whole of Europe available to you to live, work and travel with a single passport and zero interference is freedom and an amazing quality of life. I really value freedom and opportunity so I'm in.

That will be the same freedom that allows Eastern European girls to be sex trafficked at ease across Europe, gangs of Romanian pickpockets and thieves to arrive at Hyde Park with their thieving "patch" already worked out ,rapists and career criminals to move about unhindered,
You may love that sort of quality of life and freedom but I think its something we can do without thanks very much

 

[lawros left foot]

So what if it goes tits up...We will grow and flourish again regardless like we always do.
You vote in and watch what new policies and changes the EU do as we'll be stuck with that lot from Brussels forever.

I'd rather we left and flourished and this is what I'm sure will happen if we do...Time for Brits to grow some balls for once instead of being soppy cry babies.

Grow some balls for once??
And I thought you were always banging on about how we are the plucky little country who has stood up to Johnny Foreigner against enormous odds and always truimphed

 

[lawros left foot]

The people of this country don't have a backbone anymore. They seem to listen to all the scaremongering and fear stories. It really is pathetic. Scare after scare. German minister today asked 'what would you do if Britain left the EU?His answer after a long pause ' I would cry. Yes of course they would cry because they would lose funding we provide . Also they are worried that Brexit would have a domino affectand see the EU fall apart.
Hollande today says there will be repercussions if we leave the EU . Is that a threat or more scare stories. The rest of the EU should leave us to make our own decisions. The French would miss our investment more than anyone.

Or perhaps they are telling it as they see it. I don't buy that every anti Brexit comment is a scare story. Nobody knows for certain how it will pan out, and they have as much to lose in this as we have

 

[Pavilionaire]

I'd rather we left and flourished and this is what I'm sure will happen if we do...Time for Brits to grow some balls for once instead of being soppy cry babies.

The fact is that in recent years we've led the EU nations in growth, we have low inflation, low interest rates, record employment levels and good inward investment. Our economic performance over the last 5 years has been - by historical standards - remarkably good and aided by the contribution of immigrants, while Cameron's recent deal does mitigate against some of the riskier aspects of membership.

Therefore, if we do elect to leave the EU and it goes tits up then future generations may look back at the UK position in 2016 and think what the hell possessed us to leave.

 

[lawros left foot]

The fact is that in recent years we've led the EU nations in growth, we have low inflation, low interest rates, record employment levels and good inward investment. Our economic performance over the last 5 years has been - by historical standards - remarkably good and aided by the contribution of immigrants, while Cameron's recent deal does mitigate against some of the riskier aspects of membership.

Therefore, if we do elect to leave the EU and it goes tits up then future generations may look back at the UK position in 2016 and think what the hell possessed us to leave.

Don't say things like this, you'll be accused of spreading scare stories

 

[melias shoes]

Or perhaps they are telling it as they see it. I don't buy that every anti Brexit comment is a scare story. Nobody knows for certain how it will pan out, and they have as much to lose in this as we have

Exactly. They have plenty to lose. That's my point.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Look at this load of twaddle man........"out of context" this, "I'm not defending anything" that and finally "which was probably what Mr Rose was doing".

He said wages would rise, this is what HSBC said would happen.

You want to explain this away because you don't want an out vote.

Then again you want controls on markets, but are happy to have no control on the British labour market...........unbelievable stuff.

The only point I was making was that if pay goes up to an extent that means the end product/service costs more than the consumer is prepared to pay then it can end in tears for the poor soul on the coalface. I wasn't commenting on whether this was just or moral, I wasn't taking a pro-EU or pro-Tory stance, I was just saying that it can happen. Your response to this was simply one more incoherent rant.

Your capacity for getting the wrong end of any stick that floats past you is surely increasing. I'll tell you one thing. It won't interest you but I'll tell you anyway. As someone who believes we should stay in the EU if I had to put my house on the result right now I'd put it on Leave. The wind is behind you. However, there are things that give me some optimism that this will change and high among these is the smug, shouting, self-righteous, non-listening, point-missing behaviour of a small minority of Leave campaigners. Up the Albion.

 

[lawros left foot]

Exactly. They have plenty to lose. That's my point.

But the two positions aren't mutually exclusive, as I said, nobody knows how this will pan out, not Boris, not call me Dave, not Nodding Nigel, and not any European politician. We all, everyone in the EU have a huge stake in this, as you say, if we leave, it could MAYBE start a domino effect, it could mean we are out in the cold for the forseable future on our own, or it could mean, we rub along with Europe, but have nothing to do with their more unpopular practises, BUT nobody knows. For outers to keep screaming "scare story" at every statement they don't like, is simply ridiculous and makes people like me, not really decided, much more likely come down on the inners side.

 

[melias shoes]

But the two positions aren't mutually exclusive, as I said, nobody knows how this will pan out, not Boris, not call me Dave, not Nodding Nigel, and not any European politician. We all, everyone in the EU have a huge stake in this, as you say, if we leave, it could MAYBE start a domino effect, it could mean we are out in the cold for the forseable future on our own, or it could mean, we rub along with Europe, but have nothing to do with their more unpopular practises, BUT nobody knows. For outers to keep screaming "scare story" at every statement they don't like, is simply ridiculous and makes people like me, not really decided, much more likely come down on the inners side.

OR it could mean leaving was the best thing we could do.who knows? I don't,you don't. We may just thrive in the long run.

 

[lawros left foot]

OR it could mean leaving was the best thing we could do.who knows? I don't,you don't. We may just thrive in the long run.

This is exactly what I have said , NOBODY KNOWS, so to accuse either side of scaremongering, for addressing legitimate concerns strikes me as not having a strong enough argument to counter it.

As for my own view, the outers seem to have far more faith in our European partners, than me, I think, if we vote out, things will get very , very vindictive, very quickly, abd closing The Jungle, and let all those migrants cross the Channel will only be the start of it.Trade tariffs, the European banks moving out of the City, countries outside the EU withdrawing investment in the UK,under pressure from the EU, and Scotland demanding independence. It really is a whole can of worms that will be opened.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The fact is that in recent years we've led the EU nations in growth, we have low inflation, low interest rates, record employment levels and good inward investment. Our economic performance over the last 5 years has been - by historical standards - remarkably good and aided by the contribution of immigrants, while Cameron's recent deal does mitigate against some of the riskier aspects of membership.

Therefore, if we do elect to leave the EU and it goes tits up then future generations may look back at the UK position in 2016 and think what the hell possessed us to leave.

The EU project is already well on the way to going tits up. With the European economy in poor health, shrinking market share, an underlying unresolved Euro crisis dragging it down, an ongoing migrant crisis threatening European security, undermining societal cohesiveness, fermenting nationalism/ extremism, plus having no control on limiting EU migration to our shores driving down wages and limiting opportunities for many of our fellow citizens, serious issues around self governance/ democratic accountability I think future generations may well ask why a once proud independent nation who as you say has led the EU nations in growth, .... low inflation, low interest rates, record employment levels and good inward investment. Didn't seize the opportunity to leave with both hands.

Unlike the project fear predictions all of the above has happened or is happening today. Better off in my ars*!