[Politics] The Labour Government

[BevBHA]

It depends where you live, as to how much rent you have to pay, plus council tax. Inner cities need doctors as much as suburban towns.
It doesn’t rise automatically after a few years to £60K.

There aren’t many more expensive places to live than Brighton (outside of london, where you’d be paid London waiting) , I live in central Brighton and was ok.

rightly so the wage doesn’t auto increase, as with most sectors. But if you push yourself for further qualifications and good performance you’ll be rewarded. As it should be imo.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There aren’t many more expensive places to live than Brighton (outside of london, where you’d be paid London waiting) , I live in central Brighton and was ok.

rightly so the wage doesn’t auto increase, as with most sectors. But if you push yourself for further qualifications and good performance you’ll be rewarded. As it should be imo.

Getting further qualifications doesn’t guarantee the posts will follow. There’s a finite number of registrars, who are still classed as junior doctors.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Having to go to a food bank on a wage structure that starts at over £32k is not being underpaid. It’s poor budgeting. This past 18 months is the first time in my career I’ve earned more than that, my previous roles starting wage was actually £33k ironically. I supported my other half on statutory maternity pay for a year on that wage, whilst paying rent, bills at the height of inflation, a new born baby, and we got through. So I won’t have that £32k is not a living wage. Especially not in a career that after a few years you can be earning £60k+

After you've spent 4-7 years qualifying at University and running up average debts of £55,000 in fees alone + Living costs before you actually start to earn anything. How many years did you spend studying and what debts did you have as a result when you first started working and actually earning money ?

 

[BevBHA]

How much is your rent then? 2 bed flat on Brighton low end circa £1200 pm +CT and Bills and you are looking at £1700pm without even trying.

£1100ish. Bills and CT takes me to around £1500-£1600. Sacrificed the car and started to walk everywhere (or bus in the rain admittedly. My wage at the time was around 2k a month after pension, student loan deductions etc. Mrs around £650 a month maternity. We didn’t have lots of luxuries don’t get me wrong, but wouldn’t say we struggled.

 

[BevBHA]

Getting further qualifications doesn’t guarantee the posts will follow. There’s a finite number of registrars, who are still classed as junior doctors.

I understand that. Again like most jobs. I was an Assistant Store Manager and passed my Store Manager assessment, had to wait around 18 months for a store to become available. C’est la vie.

 

[BevBHA]

After you've spent 4-7 years qualifying at University and running up average debts of £55,000 in fees + Living costs before you actually start to earn anything. How many years did you spend studying and what debts did you have as a result when you first started working and actually earning money ?

4 years at uni studying to be a teacher believe it or not, student loan currently around 50k for something I don’t even use, as I career changed

 

[Thunder Bolt]

How much is your rent then? 2 bed flat on Brighton low end circa £1200 pm +CT and Bills and you are looking at £1700pm without even trying.

I’ve just added repayments of student loans to my previous post.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I understand that. Again like most jobs. I was an Assistant Store Manager and passed my Store Manager assessment, had to wait around 18 months for a store to become available. C’est la vie.

18 months

 

[BevBHA]

18 months

Have I missed something?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Have I missed something?

The point. Try 5-10 years minimum.

 

[WATFORD zero]

4 years at uni studying to be a teacher believe it or not, student loan currently around 50k for something I don’t even use, as I career changed

I'm assuming that a significant part of your loan was your living costs of being a student as if you were charged 9K per year fees it would only total £36K (and I get the impression you may have studied before the 9K fees. You'll see the figure of 55K I quoted was simply fees.

That was your choice, as it would have been to choose medicine and run up even higher debts in the hope that if you studied hard and then actually used what you studied, you should earn more than someone who didn't or decided on a 'career change' once they'd finished their education. I don't think that's unreasonable, do you

 

[BevBHA]

The point. Try 5-10 years minimum.

Your posts feel a little hostile? I was having a genuine discussion, my posts aren’t loaded just my opinion. Is there anything I can read to back up the 5-10 year suggestion? Interested to learn more.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Your posts feel a little hostile? I was having a genuine discussion, my posts aren’t loaded just my opinion. Is there anything I can read to back up the 5-10 year suggestion? Interested to learn more.

It's how many years (minimum) you have to work as a junior doctor before even being considered for promotion, obviously on top of the 4-7 years you have already spent at University

 

[BevBHA]

I'm assuming that a significant part of your loan was your living costs of being a student if you were charged 9K per year fees, you'll see the figure I quoted was simply fees.

That was your choice, as it would have been to choose medicine and run up even higher debts in the hope that if you studied hard and then actually used what you studied, you should earn more than someone who didn't or decided on a 'career change' once they'd finished their education. I don't think that's unreasonable, do you

To be honest with interest it goes up more in than I pay off each month so not too sure what it was when I first graduated.

Look I understand your point fully. To emphasise, I only career changed because 1. I was going to become a PE teacher and the Tory government does not give a toss about PE so stripped funding and contact hours. And 2. Because the money in teaching is about half what I earn now so I followed the money. I just think the starting wage and also the potential salary is a hell of lot better for a junior doctor than a teacher which is why I don’t feel the same about them personally.

It’s also important to remember that most people never pay off a student loan, and it’s not held against you when borrowing for a mortgage for example. It’s not a ‘recognised debt’ for want of a better phrase.

 

[BevBHA]

It's how many years (minimum) you have to work as a junior doctor before even being considered for promotion, obviously on top of the 4-7 years you have already spent at University

You have however forgotten the £5k payrise from foundation year 1 to foundation year 2. And then the further £5.5k payrise whilst training for a specialism. So yes 5 years but that includes to pay rises totalling over £10k

Pay scales for junior doctors in England

The basic pay scales and salary for junior doctors in NHS training in England for 2019-2020.

www.bma.org.uk

Medical training pathway

The training required to become a doctor can be different for everyone. We've mapped out the medical training pathway to help guide you through the process.

www.bma.org.uk

 

[WATFORD zero]

To be honest with interest it goes up more in than I pay off each month so not too sure what it was when I first graduated.

Look I understand your point fully. To emphasise, I only career changed because 1. I was going to become a PE teacher and the Tory government does not give a toss about PE so stripped funding and contact hours. And 2. Because the money is teaching is about half what I earn now so I followed the money. I just think the starting wage and also the potentially salary is a hell of lot better for a junior doctor than a teacher which I why I don’t feel the same about them personally.

It’s also important to remember that most people never pay off a student loan, and it’s not held against you when borrowing for a mortgage for example. It’s not a ‘recognised debt’ for want of a better phrase.

In which case, I suspect that you spent far more of your loan on 'being a student' than on your fees

Personally, I think Doctors and Teachers are some of the most important members of society. The simple fact is that 'junior doctors' are fully qualified doctors who have completed a medical degree and can have up to nine years' of working experience as a hospital doctor, depending on their specialty, or up to five years working and gaining experience to become a general practitioner (GP).

Consequently, given the responsibility that goes with their jobs I would hope they are paid more than a Store Manager (as should teachers). Sorry

 

[BevBHA]

In which case, I suspect that you spent far more of your loan on 'being a student' than on your fees

Personally, I think Doctors and Teachers are some of the most important members of society. The simple fact is that 'junior doctors' are fully qualified doctors who have completed a medical degree and can have up to nine years' of working experience as a hospital doctor, depending on their specialty, or up to five years working and gaining experience to become a general practitioner (GP).

Consequently, given the responsibility that goes with their jobs I would hope they are paid more than a Store Manager (as should teachers). Sorry

Not saying I disagree re my pay, like I say I followed the money. My choice. But where does it stop. Perhaps retail workers should strike as without them there’s no shops or supermarkets. Where does it end? In an ideal world everyone gets a payrise, we don’t live in an ideal world unfortunately.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Not saying I disagree re my pay, like I say I followed the money. My choice. But where does it stop. Perhaps retail workers should strike as without them there’s no shops or supermarkets. Where does it end? In an ideal world everyone gets a payrise, we don’t live in an ideal world unfortunately.

If you 'followed the money' after spending 4 years at Uni running up debts and your debts are still increasing, maybe you didn't 'follow the money' quite as successfully as you should have

When retail workers have to spend 10-18 years to qualify for what they do, and have my life in their hands, I'll be right behind them getting a pay rise

Night

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

To be honest with interest it goes up more in than I pay off each month so not too sure what it was when I first graduated.

Look I understand your point fully. To emphasise, I only career changed because 1. I was going to become a PE teacher and the Tory government does not give a toss about PE so stripped funding and contact hours. And 2. Because the money is teaching is about half what I earn now so I followed the money. I just think the starting wage and also the potentially salary is a hell of lot better for a junior doctor than a teacher which I why I don’t feel the same about them personally.

It’s also important to remember that most people never pay off a student loan, and it’s not held against you when borrowing for a mortgage for example. It’s not a ‘recognised debt’ for want of a better phrase.

Agree with all that*. But junior doctor salary isn't great. It should be at least 20% more that what it is.

The one thing I would say that maybe maps to your narrative (less than massively enthusiastic about them getting an eye watering pay rise) is the other end of the spectrum - NHS docs moonlighting to do private work. It is absolutely rife where I work; the junior doctors in my area (heart) all moonlight at the same private clinic. For others there is a whiff of unfulfilled entitlement as they hit their early 30s and are yet to become consultants (by definition 'junior'). On the other hand, the left wing ones, all full of kindness and compassion, can find themselves overwhelmed if they 'foolishly' start a family before their mid 30s. A lot of this has to do with the failure to modernize (attitudes within the profession). Look up the BMA page on wiki and scroll down towards the bottom, and findings of recent institutionalized sexism and other cockwomblry).

*When I was at school I was minded never to argue with a PE teacher

 

[BevBHA]

If you 'followed the money' after spending 4 years at Uni running up debts and your debts are still increasing, maybe you didn't 'follow the money' quite as successfully as you should have

When retail workers have to spend 10-18 years to qualify for what they do, and have my life in their hands, I'll be right behind them getting a pay rise

Night

No worries, and when for those 10-18 years of training they’re paid £40k plus for the duration I’m sure they’ll be happy to have your support. Night, maybe you’ll wake up tomorrow a little less condescending.