Rip broken britain

[Herr Tubthumper]

Do you know what they'll have to do? Find jobs and house themselves. What a novelty.

My point bring that you'll end up with people on the streets stealing ie exactly the same situation as we have now.

 

[BadFish]

I remember when I was young, I was caught riding my motorcycle without insurance... I couldn't afford it.
For this, I recieved a ban, which, when it was over, doubled my insurance premiums. I now doubly couldn't afford it, and it struck me as bizarre that the punishment made reoffending more likely.

Any talk now of removing benefits, or fining rioters who are financially constrained seems doomed to failure to me.
This is not to say that financial punishments are not appropriate for rioters who have jobs or other means.

So for those for whom fines, benefit loss, or even jail sentences are percieved as counter productive, why not give them jobs?
The state can afford to pay a wage, because it will be less than the cost of banging them up. The Job can be, and probably will be the kind of minimum wage job which many of these criminals have turned their noses up at before... loo cleaning, grafiti removal, there are any number of jobs which will enhance the local community. But with good behaviour these could lead onto better jobs, where the crims, potentially could learn a trade in bricklaying, plumbing maybe... again working on community projects.

Somebody shake me, because I'm not seeing a downside here...
* It costs less than keeping someone in prison
* Crims get punished by having to do something they don't want to, (i.e. Work)
* Community projects can start, or continue at zero net cost to the public purse (on labour costs at least)
* Useful skills are added to the job pool
* Failure to take the opportunity merely results in falling back to the original options.

Of course, some will say that we are only rewarding bad behaviour, and I guess there's not much I can say in rejoinder, except that it seems that other options seem less good.

Don't come on here with your thinking and logic. Birch the little fuckers Birch em till they can't be birched no more.

 

[1066familyman]

Fair comment about my use of the word violence, I stand corrected. In the literal sense of the word obviously the 'smack across the hand or arse' you refer to certainly isn't violence, and apologies if it looked like I was comparing the beatings I spoke of with smacking. However, I stand by my belief that it's never right to smack a child as a means of discipline. Aside from the negative message it ultimately sends, it's surely an admission that you've lost control as a parent if you can't use the hundred and one other tools you should have in the box, given that a responsible parent can control almost all aspects of their child's life. Why anyone should need to resort to smacking is beyond me. It's a short term quick fix approach that doesn't really teach anything as far as I'm concerned.

The comments on here during the rioting ranged from wanting the police to wade in with batons, to the use of water cannon, and right through to them using rubber bullets and even live ammo ! Some people have been watching too many hollywood films I suspect and perhaps some of the more extreme comments were only made during the heat of the moment. But there does seem to be a real feeling of anger in these comments no doubt fuelled by fear, frustration and a sense of hopelessness. I find it curious that people who deplore the violence so much seem to almost be frothing at the mouth and obviously vehement in their desire to see violence met with violence as a means of solving all the problems. I find that quite alarming if these are supposed to be the 'good guys'.

 

[1066familyman]

A bit of an overstatement there. You use the word violence, as if a smack and burning someones house down is the same thing.

This is the problem when you try and have this sort of conversation. When people alk of discipline by smacking, they are not talking about beating their kids black and blue like you suggest. Just a smack across the hand or arse is enough for most kids. Sure a right good beating doesn't help anyone, and as you suggested it is violence, but probably as you well know, hardly anyone is suggesting that. I 100% agree that good beating isn't going to help discipline outside the home.

I'm sure your kids are fine. Everyones kids are angels. The problem is though, whilst your kids are no doubt fine, a lot of parents treat there kids like an accesory, and these are the kids that aren't fine. If the parents can't displicine and teach their kids right from wrong, and the schools should have more power to do so.

I just get fed up with this liberal rubbish, about violence with violence crap, when the two things are completeing different.

Fair comment about my use of the word violence, I stand corrected. In the literal sense of the word obviously the 'smack across the hand or arse' you refer to certainly isn't violence, and apologies if it looked like I was comparing the beatings I spoke of with smacking. However, I stand by my belief that it's never right to smack a child as a means of discipline. Aside from the negative message it ultimately sends, it's surely an admission that you've lost control as a parent if you can't use the hundred and one other tools you should have in the box, given that a responsible parent can control almost all aspects of their child's life. Why anyone should need to resort to smacking is beyond me. It's a short term quick fix approach that doesn't really teach anything as far as I'm concerned.

The comments on here during the rioting ranged from wanting the police to wade in with batons, to the use of water cannon, and right through to them using rubber bullets and even live ammo ! Some people have been watching too many hollywood films I suspect and perhaps some of the more extreme comments were only made during the heat of the moment. But there does seem to be a real feeling of anger in these comments no doubt fuelled by fear, frustration and a sense of hopelessness. I find it curious that people who deplore the violence so much seem to almost be frothing at the mouth and obviously vehement in their desire to see violence met with violence as a means of solving all the problems. I find that quite alarming if these are supposed to be the 'good guys'.

 

[folkestonesgull]

Jeez.
Don't you recognise a reducto ad absurdum argument when you see one.

5 day old baby....pretty tired

 

[HovaGirl]

5 day old baby....pretty tired

 

[Triggaaar]

RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!.. You went soft on immigration! Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear.. Kids had rights blah blah blah.. Well done Britain..You shall reap what you sow.. We have lost a whole generation!

There's a GREAT deal of difference between a sharp smack on the back of a plump little leg, and a thump round the head or a beating.

I simply disagreed with the OP - so are you suggesting that if kids had been given a sharp smack on the leg then we wouldn't be having these problems? I assume not, that's absurd, but that appears to be what you're arguing. Teaching your children to respect others, to have empathy and want to be a part of society, is not about smacking them when they misbehave.

 

[BadFish]

I find it amazing that people still believe that discipline can only be instilled by hitting your children. My children are well behaved, well bought up and disciplined. They have respect for others and society and I have never hit them. Actually that is not true we did try smacking my oldest for a short period of time, didn't work but that is another story, he is a different type of fish!!

 

[Danny-Boy]

Fair comment about my use of the word violence, I stand corrected. In the literal sense of the word obviously the 'smack across the hand or arse' you refer to certainly isn't violence, and apologies if it looked like I was comparing the beatings I spoke of with smacking. However, I stand by my belief that it's never right to smack a child as a means of discipline. Aside from the negative message it ultimately sends, it's surely an admission that you've lost control as a parent if you can't use the hundred and one other tools you should have in the box, given that a responsible parent can control almost all aspects of their child's life. Why anyone should need to resort to smacking is beyond me. It's a short term quick fix approach that doesn't really teach anything as far as I'm concerned.

The comments on here during the rioting ranged from wanting the police to wade in with batons, to the use of water cannon, and right through to them using rubber bullets and even live ammo ! Some people have been watching too many hollywood films I suspect and perhaps some of the more extreme comments were only made during the heat of the moment. But there does seem to be a real feeling of anger in these comments no doubt fuelled by fear, frustration and a sense of hopelessness. I find it curious that people who deplore the violence so much seem to almost be frothing at the mouth and obviously vehement in their desire to see violence met with violence as a means of solving all the problems. I find that quite alarming if these are supposed to be the 'good guys'.

From my own experience..

I was caned at school, hard. But I probably deserved it, though certain masters did seem to have a sadistic streak. But the human bottom does seem to be able to cope with quite a lot of striking, on the fleshy opart. I think the more "touchy-feely" brigade prevalent these days do far more longterm damage to confidence in teachers.

Regarding the spread of ideas from the USA, it is not just films is it? We are all indocrinated now in USA culture, this has been going on since WW2 and is eroding this country's sense of ORIGINAL cultural identity. THerefore "stronger" cultures from the Commonwealth and other ethnic groups try to preserve their own culture when they come here, rather than let their secon/third generations become a kind of cultural USA clone generation. SAdly the media will call for the police to police themselves but how much are they prepared to look at the output on TV?

 

[HovaGirl]

I find it amazing that people still believe that discipline can only be instilled by hitting your children. My children are well behaved, well bought up and disciplined. They have respect for others and society and I have never hit them. Actually that is not true we did try smacking my oldest for a short period of time, didn't work but that is another story, he is a different type of fish!!

No, physical punishment is the last resort of the parents. There are times when a toddler in a tantrum just won't listen or respond to your reasonable pleas for them to behave, or stop whatever it is they are doing. Sometimes, like Victorian ladies in a state of shock, one way to bring them out of the tantrum, is to give them a short, sharp rap on the back of the leg or the arm. At other times, perhaps if they insist on stepping out into the road, no matter how many times you ask them to wait, a shocking little smack can make them stop and think about what you are trying to teach them. Once a toddler has learnt you mean what you say and if they sense a smack may be on the way, they will probably never need a smack again.

 

[HovaGirl]

From my own experience..

I was caned at school, hard. But I probably deserved it, though certain masters did seem to have a sadistic streak. But the human bottom does seem to be able to cope with quite a lot of striking, on the fleshy opart. I think the more "touchy-feely" brigade prevalent these days do far more longterm damage to confidence in teachers.

Physical discipline in schools is a difficult one, because some teachers can take it too far, either out of frustration, or out of masochistic tendencies, but one would hope they would be in the minority, would be reported and dealt with. In the 1960s, you didn't even think of reporting a teacher for over-use of the cane or for shaking children so hard they end up in hospital. These days, it would be reasonable for a pupil to accuse a teacher of something like this.

In the 1980s, I was thinking of going into teaching but was appalled at what I saw. In a 40-minute lesson, the first 20 minutes would be taken up by students who arrived late, or students who just would not settle down, determined to disrupt the class. Then there would be 10 minutes of teaching, and 10 minutes where the students were shuffling around, waiting for the bell to go. There was almost nothing the teacher could do, except to send the pupil to The Office, to get a yellow card. These cards were collected like trophies. The more cards you had, the cooler you were. As for exclusion, that was seen as a triumph. And that happened almost 30 years ago, to the parents of today's teenagers.

 

[HovaGirl]

Regarding the spread of ideas from the USA, it is not just films is it? We are all indocrinated now in USA culture, this has been going on since WW2 and is eroding this country's sense of ORIGINAL cultural identity. THerefore "stronger" cultures from the Commonwealth and other ethnic groups try to preserve their own culture when they come here, rather than let their secon/third generations become a kind of cultural USA clone generation. SAdly the media will call for the police to police themselves but how much are they prepared to look at the output on TV?

This is a good point. British culture has quickly become eroded, as you say, by the adoption of Americanisation through TV, films and music, particularly rap. On top of that, mass immigration has resulted in what amount to ghettoes, where the culture of the immigrants' home country has been encouraged to thrive to the point where we have mini-countries within the UK, where English is hardly even spoken, and where their own cultural laws are being carried out. Much of this is anathema to the natural British sense of justice and tolerance. For centuries, England has welcomed immigrants and even borrowed some of their language and culture, but this was at times when the immigrants were willing to integrate and become, essentially, English. Now, I fear, there is a growing intolerance, not of immigrants themselves, but of the way so many immigrants actually shun the very cultural reasons why they settled in England in the first place.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

This is a good point. British culture has quickly become eroded, as you say, by the adoption of Americanisation through TV, films and music, particularly rap. On top of that, mass immigration has resulted in what amount to ghettoes, where the culture of the immigrants' home country has been encouraged to thrive to the point where we have mini-countries within the UK, where English is hardly even spoken, and where their own cultural laws are being carried out. Much of this is anathema to the natural British sense of justice and tolerance. For centuries, England has welcomed immigrants and even borrowed some of their language and culture, but this was at times when the immigrants were willing to integrate and become, essentially, English. Now, I fear, there is a growing intolerance, not of immigrants themselves, but of the way so many immigrants actually shun the very cultural reasons why they settled in England in the first place.

I don't know if this sounds racist, it's not supposed to be, but I begrudged the councils etc. paying millions a year for translators (for people who live here). If someone wants to this country, preferably they should be able to speak English - if they choose not to learn it, let them pay should any translation be needed - why should the taxpayer pick up the bill.

 

[Dr Bandler]

I find it amazing that people still believe that discipline can only be instilled by hitting your children. My children are well behaved, well bought up and disciplined. They have respect for others and society and I have never hit them. Actually that is not true we did try smacking my oldest for a short period of time, didn't work but that is another story, he is a different type of fish!!

I think the problem with analysing this subject is that "violence" is treated as a topic disembodied (sic) from its context, and is seen as a "black or white" issue. A smack from a parent who is loving and setting boundaries cannot be compared to a senseless beating from a drunken father. I feel that in order to stop the latter society oulawed the former. It ignored the wider context, and it is not that simple.

I went to a school where there was corporal punishment, and any wise guy thug would be faced down and shown that he cannot behave badly. While I didnt enjoy my correctional punishment at the time, I think all my friends and I look back at the school in a very positive way. The teachers also cared about us and put a lot of effort into preparing us both academically and as people for the world. Does that really happen now? I think by focusing on any physical punishment and being squeamish about it, you are missing the bigger picture, and we have ended up with a strangely contorted society, that is not helping our young people to grow.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that physical punishment is necessary, only that if it is part of caring, developing and boundary-setting (which are the important things) it is not wrong. Good parents like you prove that. I fear we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

I don't know if this sounds racist, it's not supposed to be, but I begrudged the councils etc. paying millions a year for translators (for people who live here). If someone wants to this country, preferably they should be able to speak English - if they choose not to learn it, let them pay should any translation be needed - why should the taxpayer pick up the bill.

What if it's a recent economic immigrant with no children who pays taxes? He could claim that he regularly contributes income tax that pays for schools which he doesn't use, and the dole for lots of native British people, even though he has never drawn from it himself. There would many other services that he helps to pay towards but doesn't use. Why would you begrudge him making use of a translator, which his taxes have helped paid towards, that will enable him to access an essential service such as the NHS?

 

[Tricky Dicky]

What if it's a recent economic immigrant with no children who pays taxes? He could claim that he regularly contributes income tax that pays for schools which he doesn't use, and the dole for lots of native British people, even though he has never drawn from it himself. There would many other services that he helps to pay towards but doesn't use. Why would you begrudge him making use of a translator, which his taxes have helped paid towards, that will enable him to access an essential service such as the NHS?

I would say he should be learning English then. I can't imagine many jobs where you don't have to be able to speak at least some English. All I am trying to do is to get people to integrate more, and encouraging them to speak English I would hope would do that.

 

[brunswick]

it is not broken britain, it is a broken system.

 

[HovaGirl]

What if it's a recent economic immigrant with no children who pays taxes? He could claim that he regularly contributes income tax that pays for schools which he doesn't use, and the dole for lots of native British people, even though he has never drawn from it himself. There would many other services that he helps to pay towards but doesn't use. Why would you begrudge him making use of a translator, which his taxes have helped paid towards, that will enable him to access an essential service such as the NHS?

What kind of a job do you think your example would have where he didn't need to speak English?

 

[HovaGirl]

it is not broken britain, it is a broken system.

Yes, and it's very sad for us who remember the 1950s and early 1960s when it seemed to be as perfect a society as you could get: free health care; dole if you were on hard times; housing if you couldn't afford to buy your own; free education from primary school to university with free Grammar schools to prepare those more able for university; the apprenticeship system for plumbers, electricians, hairdressers, etc; more integrated immigrants of all faiths and colours; a pride in being British or in living in Britain. It's a very different country now.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Yes, and it's very sad for us who remember the 1950s and early 1960s when it seemed to be as perfect a society as you could get: free health care; dole if you were on hard times; housing if you couldn't afford to buy your own; free education from primary school to university with free Grammar schools to prepare those more able for university; the apprenticeship system for plumbers, electricians, hairdressers, etc; more integrated immigrants of all faiths and colours; a pride in being British or in living in Britain. It's a very different country now.

I'd say it's a different world, and different times.