Rip broken britain

[Surport Local Team]

watch the film THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS (will smith), film based on true story about a guy who went through hell to support his family, he had nothing at one point was sleeping in public toilets (while he struggled as a salesman and studding at night, he was to proud to take benefits. he sold his company a few years ago for £300 million dollars. very moving film

 

[jimhigham]

This is surely the way parliament should work. Instead they bicker and argue like children. love your ideologically thinking though.

One should always have a dream, eh? I guess that's what's kept us all going to Withdean all these years.

 

[BadFish]

watch the film THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS (will smith), film based on true story about a guy who went through hell to support his family, he had nothing at one point was sleeping in public toilets (while he struggled as a salesman and studding at night, he was to proud to take benefits. he sold his company a few years ago for £300 million dollars. very moving film

I think I saw a different version of the film to this one!

 

[Danny-Boy]

Two generations. This lot are the offspring of the first round of social experiments: that generation for whom marriage was rarely an option; that generation for whom multiple children without fathers became acceptable; that generation whose exam questions were dumbed down so they ended up knowing almost nothing; that generation who ended up jobless and on benefits. Now, their children are on the streets: a generation who expect to get rich quick on reality shows or by becoming a WAG; a generation which spends its lives in a virtual world of games, violent films n txt msgs; a generation without conscience and without responsibility; a generation without discipline and without hope.

Couldn't put it better myself. Now I'm the "Grandpa" generation I can say that I saw it coming, that "My Generation" were given too much freedom, red-brick universities encouraged casual sex and drugs too young, and rock culture took over.

Now forty years down the line the kids don't ask "What did YOU do in the War, Grandad?" but "What did you do at the Isle of Wight festival?"

Or knowing my generation, we bore the pants off them repeatedly telling them what we did. My Dad would talk about the War he fought in, but it was grim. People died fighting for freedom, not on open-air toilets or sprawled in bed surrounded by needles etc.

 

[Triggaaar]

RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!.. You went soft on immigration! Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear..

What - so these are the first riots we've ever had? And there are no riots in countries where the disciplin is a little more 'old school' (medieval)?

I have a couple of young kids, and I don't want them to riot when their older, so I guess I should give them a quick beating now, that way they'll learn that violence doesn't solve problems.

 

[BadFish]

Couldn't put it better myself. Now I'm the "Grandpa" generation I can say that I saw it coming, that "My Generation" were given too much freedom, red-brick universities encouraged casual sex and drugs too young, and rock culture took over.

Now forty years down the line the kids don't ask "What did YOU do in the War, Grandad?" but "What did you do at the Isle of Wight festival?"

Or knowing my generation, we bore the pants off them repeatedly telling them what we did. My Dad would talk about the War he fought in, but it was grim. People died fighting for freedom, not on open-air toilets or sprawled in bed surrounded by needles etc.

More war less hippies!! That'll sort em out.

 

[Gwylan]

One possible component of our "broken" society is the role of prison in dealing with offenders. I heard a piece on the news yesterday suggesting that up to 80% of people imprisoned for a crime go on to reoffend and that this was the worst rate in the EU. I do not know the source of the numbers or if this is true. However, if it is, then empirical evidence should be available detailing with nationalities have the lowest rate of reoffending.

I don't know if that stat is true or not, but I do know the recidivism rate is high here. I suggest the high re-offending rate is down to the fact that the majority of crimes are drug-related (I don't mean possession or smuggling but the amount of burglaries and robberies to support a habit) and there's little or no treatment for addiction in prison. So, if someone steals to feed a habit and he/she comes out of that prison with a habit, the chances are that he/she will steal again.
The UK has some of the harshest drugs laws in the EU so it wouldn't surprise me that we top that particular league.

As for nationalities, my guess is that by far the biggest number of re-offenders are British.

 

[Danny-Boy]

One possible component of our "broken" society is the role of prison in dealing with offenders. I heard a piece on the news yesterday suggesting that up to 80% of people imprisoned for a crime go on to reoffend and that this was the worst rate in the EU. I do not know the source of the numbers or if this is true. However, if it is, then empirical evidence should be available detailing with nationalities have the lowest rate of reoffending.

The problem with central government is that it only tends to view things in terms of five year periods. As a consequence, long-term planning is difficult. This could be said for almost every area of policy. However, in terms of this debate what I would like to see is all the main political parties sitting down together and chewing over the data from countires that are far more successful in rehabilitating their prison population. Ideally, a plan of attack incorporating the implementation of best practice from other countries would be drawn up. This would be a process that would almost certainly take longer than a single term of parliament to enact. As such, any agreement should be signed up to by all parties and ring-fenced for an agreed period.

And how likely is that? Not at all. It will neverhappen. So I've pretty much been wasting my time by even typing this. Sigh!

This erudite comment is why I actually think a Coalition Government might be better able to handle this problem, there will be a wider perspective in the Cabinet than basically the "Hang'EM and Flog 'Em" brigade which usually appears in a purely Tory administration.

One of Thatcher's greatest evils was to abolish the Commuinty Programme, which from the late 1970's until she wound it up in 1988 gave the unemployed (of whom I was then one) the chance to work for 30 hours a week or so on community schemes for about £100 a week. That was not bad in those days. It also got a lot of community schemes off the ground. Unfortunately a lot of the sneering general public purposely confused it with Community Work which was what minor offenders were sentenced to. If they had just renamed it...

 

[Harold]

The simplest solution, as far as I can see, is only couples where both parties have been in full time employment for three years, should be allowed to conceive and birth a child. Any children conceived outside of these parameters should be forcibly aborted. Any that are birthed outside these parameters should be destroyed or sent overseas for adoption. On the birth of a child, its parents should pay £2,500 each to cover a small part of the additional costs on the country's infrastructure the child will create. Not only would this eradicate feral youth within a generation, the birth fee would also cover much of the annual interest on the UK's national debt. It's a genius idea and it's copyright me.

It's exactly that sort of liberal, do-gooder, hand-wringing, softly-softly approach that's got us in this mess in the first place.

 

[Scampi]

This erudite comment is why I actually think a Coalition Government might be better able to handle this problem, there will be a wider perspective in the Cabinet than basically the "Hang'EM and Flog 'Em" brigade which usually appears in a purely Tory administration.

One of Thatcher's greatest evils was to abolish the Commuinty Programme, which from the late 1970's until she wound it up in 1988 gave the unemployed (of whom I was then one) the chance to work for 30 hours a week or so on community schemes for about £100 a week. That was not bad in those days. It also got a lot of community schemes off the ground. Unfortunately a lot of the sneering general public purposely confused it with Community Work which was what minor offenders were sentenced to. If they had just renamed it...

I dont think you can just blame the tories for hang em and flog em. The labour mob had pretty much jumped on that band wagon and Ken Clarke as justice secretery has proposed some policies which are far more progressive than the last government.
The problem is , and you can see it on here, is it's difficult to offer an opinion with out being shouted down by the very vocal harsh punishment brigade.

 

[HovaGirl]

So, let me get this right. We take away their home and their means of support....so they will roam and streets and probably have to steal to survive. Mmmmmmm. Can you spot the problem here?

Do you know what they'll have to do? Find jobs and house themselves. What a novelty.

 

[HovaGirl]

You are simply repeating the daily drip-drip of right-wing tabloid phrases and over-generalisations you are being fed, and actually think you came up with them yourself. The riots you see on TV are not representative of what the majority of people, or the majority of young people, are up to in this country.

No, just the criminal element and their kids.

 

[HovaGirl]

What - so these are the first riots we've ever had? And there are no riots in countries where the disciplin is a little more 'old school' (medieval)?

I have a couple of young kids, and I don't want them to riot when their older, so I guess I should give them a quick beating now, that way they'll learn that violence doesn't solve problems.

This is the first time there have been massed riots based on the concept of thieving and looting. We have just seen criminal riots, not social or political riots.

 

[binky]

I remember when I was young, I was caught riding my motorcycle without insurance... I couldn't afford it.
For this, I recieved a ban, which, when it was over, doubled my insurance premiums. I now doubly couldn't afford it, and it struck me as bizarre that the punishment made reoffending more likely.

Any talk now of removing benefits, or fining rioters who are financially constrained seems doomed to failure to me.
This is not to say that financial punishments are not appropriate for rioters who have jobs or other means.

So for those for whom fines, benefit loss, or even jail sentences are percieved as counter productive, why not give them jobs?
The state can afford to pay a wage, because it will be less than the cost of banging them up. The Job can be, and probably will be the kind of minimum wage job which many of these criminals have turned their noses up at before... loo cleaning, grafiti removal, there are any number of jobs which will enhance the local community. But with good behaviour these could lead onto better jobs, where the crims, potentially could learn a trade in bricklaying, plumbing maybe... again working on community projects.

Somebody shake me, because I'm not seeing a downside here...
* It costs less than keeping someone in prison
* Crims get punished by having to do something they don't want to, (i.e. Work)
* Community projects can start, or continue at zero net cost to the public purse (on labour costs at least)
* Useful skills are added to the job pool
* Failure to take the opportunity merely results in falling back to the original options.

Of course, some will say that we are only rewarding bad behaviour, and I guess there's not much I can say in rejoinder, except that it seems that other options seem less good.

 

[pasty]

I remember when I was young, I was caught riding my motorcycle without insurance... I couldn't afford it.
For this, I recieved a ban, which, when it was over, doubled my insurance premiums. I now doubly couldn't afford it, and it struck me as bizarre that the punishment made reoffending more likely.

Any talk now of removing benefits, or fining rioters who are financially constrained seems doomed to failure to me.
This is not to say that financial punishments are not appropriate for rioters who have jobs or other means.

So for those for whom fines, benefit loss, or even jail sentences are percieved as counter productive, why not give them jobs?
The state can afford to pay a wage, because it will be less than the cost of banging them up. The Job can be, and probably will be the kind of minimum wage job which many of these criminals have turned their noses up at before... loo cleaning, grafiti removal, there are any number of jobs which will enhance the local community. But with good behaviour these could lead onto better jobs, where the crims, potentially could learn a trade in bricklaying, plumbing maybe... again working on community projects.

Somebody shake me, because I'm not seeing a downside here...
* It costs less than keeping someone in prison
* Crims get punished by having to do something they don't want to, (i.e. Work)
* Community projects can start, or continue at zero net cost to the public purse (on labour costs at least)
* Useful skills are added to the job pool
* Failure to take the opportunity merely results in falling back to the original options.

Of course, some will say that we are only rewarding bad behaviour, and I guess there's not much I can say in rejoinder, except that it seems that other options seem less good.

Absolutely this. Benefits should be earnt, not expected.

 

[folkestonesgull]

So, let me get this right. We take away their home and their means of support....so they will roam and streets and probably have to steal to survive. Mmmmmmm. Can you spot the problem here?

I cant be bothered to read all of this thread full of sensationalism- basically what he said. Taking away benefits and housing will help exactly how? Making people 'work' for such benefits, be it attending parenting classes or work placements, learning to read and write, 'volunteering' street cleaning etc however would probably make a world of difference...but wait, we've cut inner city programs like this in the last couple of years because of the recession/ideology on where money should be spent. The'them' and 'us' mentallity in this country is only going to exacerbate events of this nature. Something needs to be done to address the root of the problem, and yes the looters need to be severely punished however we need to look at long term solutions to fix the problems in place rather than reactionary responses that drive the country further apart.

 

[Triggaaar]

This is the first time there have been massed riots based on the concept of thieving and looting. We have just seen criminal riots, not social or political riots.

Maybe, but do you think it's because the criminals weren't hit enough when they were kids? More like the opposite.

 

[folkestonesgull]

The simplest solution, as far as I can see, is only couples where both parties have been in full time employment for three years, should be allowed to conceive and birth a child. Any children conceived outside of these parameters should be forcibly aborted. Any that are birthed outside these parameters should be destroyed or sent overseas for adoption. On the birth of a child, its parents should pay £2,500 each to cover a small part of the additional costs on the country's infrastructure the child will create. Not only would this eradicate feral youth within a generation, the birth fee would also cover much of the annual interest on the UK's national debt. It's a genius idea and it's copyright me.

wtf....I really hope you are a child.

 

[binky]

The simplest solution, as far as I can see, is only couples where both parties have been in full time employment for three years, should be allowed to conceive and birth a child. Any children conceived outside of these parameters should be forcibly aborted. Any that are birthed outside these parameters should be destroyed or sent overseas for adoption. On the birth of a child, its parents should pay £2,500 each to cover a small part of the additional costs on the country's infrastructure the child will create. Not only would this eradicate feral youth within a generation, the birth fee would also cover much of the annual interest on the UK's national debt. It's a genius idea and it's copyright me.

wtf....I really hope you are a child.

Jeez.
Don't you recognise a reducto ad absurdum argument when you see one.

 

[HovaGirl]

Maybe, but do you think it's because the criminals weren't hit enough when they were kids? More like the opposite.

There's a GREAT deal of difference between a sharp smack on the back of a plump little leg, and a thump round the head or a beating.