P.C. gone mad...AGAIN!

[JCL - the new kid in town]

Anyway, she was pony,

maybe the coach wanted a work HORSE in the middle of the park

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

You should try my job. Everyone in the bloody world knows how to be a better transport planner than I am. To say nothing of NSC.

Well it's just so easy, just put more trains on, and longer trains and make sure you get more people on each train by force if necessary. You can sort the car parks out by fining anyone who causes a queue in the car parks and with this revenue buy some "Boris Bikes" for the people who live within 5 miles of the stadium which will in turn improve the health of the supporters so they live longer and pump more money into the club and thus more players bought. I can't see what's so difficult.

(i feel on this thread i should try and make sure my spelling and punctuation is right or someone will cover it in red pen but i'm not sure i can be arsed)

 

[Manx Shearwater]

Well it's just so easy, just put more trains on, and longer trains and make sure you get more people on each train by force if necessary. You can sort the car parks out by fining anyone who causes a queue in the car parks and with this revenue buy some "Boris Bikes" for the people who live within 5 miles of the stadium which will in turn improve the health of the supporters so they live longer and pump more money into the club and thus more players bought. I can't see what's so difficult.

(i feel on this thread i should try and make sure my spelling and punctuation is right or someone will cover it in red pen but i'm not sure i can be arsed)

Don't worry, we'll only do two or three at a time.

 

[Acker79]

Without wanting to sound patronising, the people who have responded to my point are clearly articulate and have good writing skills. What you have to remember is that you could teach spelling all day every day to some children (and adults) and they would still not come up to a standard that you would believe is acceptable. Would you keep going until they were 15/16 years old, doing the same old things day-in, day-out? At some stage you have to accept that there are other aspects to a child's writing which are important and probably more achievable. Someone could try to teach me astro-physics, but however long they spent I wouldn't be able to understand it. If they told me that as a result of me not understanding it I had to do it all again next year, and the following year... well.

I'm not some 'liberal-minded' teacher that people like to have a pop at, just an ordinary chap who has been doing this job for 18 years and can speak from experience.

But that still doesn't sit right with me. It's too broad. Using your example, it's like saying because you can't be taught astro-physics, it won't be taught at all. How do you know which kids will be able to improve their spelling with your help and corrections, and which won't? You may not completely understand astro-physics, but I imagine some aspects of it will make sense. Introductory issues. If not with you, there will be some who can understand basics. Some who can understand slightly more advanced, and some who can understand expert level. The same with children and spelling. Some will advance a little further with spelling, some will advance further still, and some will almost perfect spelling (pobody's nerfect). But the way you explain it sounds like the approach is "well, they might not improve, so let's not even try, let's just plough ahead".

I can understand correcting an error the first time it occurs only, but isn't it confusing to correct some and not others? Won't the assumption be 'this isn't corrected it must be right'? Or worse, they never know so keep changing throughout their work.

I don't mean to suggest don't move on from spelling lessons until they get it right, but keep highlighting the mistakes, even if you don't mark them down for it so that they at least know for sure.

 

[Bold Seagull]

But that still doesn't sit right with me. It's too broad. Using your example, it's like saying because you can't be taught astro-physics, it won't be taught at all. How do you know which kids will be able to improve their spelling with your help and corrections, and which won't? You may not completely understand astro-physics, but I imagine some aspects of it will make sense. Introductory issues. If not with you, there will be some who can understand basics. Some who can understand slightly more advanced, and some who can understand expert level. The same with children and spelling. Some will advance a little further with spelling, some will advance further still, and some will almost perfect spelling (pobody's nerfect). But the way you explain it sounds like the approach is "well, they might not improve, so let's not even try, let's just plough ahead".

I can understand correcting an error the first time it occurs only, but isn't it confusing to correct some and not others? Won't the assumption be 'this isn't corrected it must be right'? Or worse, they never know so keep changing throughout their work.

I don't mean to suggest don't move on from spelling lessons until they get it right, but keep highlighting the mistakes, even if you don't mark them down for it so that they at least know for sure.

This is down to a teacher assessing the capability of a child and responding accordingly. Some children will never properly grasp spelling and grammar, much the same as some will not be able to cope with maths or foreign languages for example. Therefore a child that struggles with spelling will be continually marked down, despite potentially producing some really creative work. The children that can spell and are advancing can have these finer errors pointed out, while another maybe marked on the quality of content rather than the detail. The skill of the teacher is to ensure the development of all abilities of the class, not trying to pretend each child can achieve the same as the rest.

Sadly, OFSTED and continual targets has meant that this aspects of a teachers craft has been eroded in the search for good statistical results. As an educational consultant said to me not so long ago, some of the best schools he has been to have been 'average' OFSTED, while some 'outstanding' ones were clearly failing a large portion of their pupils, and not encouraging create thought and learning.

The point being, is that far from your concern that pupils don't develop, as I understand it, what Sidcup Seagull is outlining (as taught to both my kids at Primary) is to develop a child at their pace of learning, and ensure you are reaching goals for that individual at regular intervals. Phonics is a great example of learning to write sounding out words. It doesn't matter that the words are spelt incorrectly, the process of learning language is developing and being encouraged.

 

[KneeOn]

This. The never-ending set of excuses that we produced for not finishing our homework were mini-masterpieces. I don't think anyone was abducted by aliens but that was about the only thing that didn't happen.

I take with a pinch of salt, everything my kids tell me about school.

What's more scandalous in my mind is that if the kids want to do football at school then the parents have to pay extra - that's something that wouldn't have happened 30 or 40 years ago. When did that come in?

It didn't happen when I was either Primary or Secondary school nor college and i was 18 only in June...

 

[e77]

You should try my job. Everyone in the bloody world knows how to be a better transport planner than I am. To say nothing of NSC.

Suggesting a better transport system is relatively easy. I imagine paying for it is the tricky part.

 

[British Bulldog]

Running rings round the class fatty isn't going to prove anything.

I'd say it teaches the little fatty a very valuable lesson, Lose some bleeding weight and you wont have other kids running rings around you.

 

[Nibble]

Yes of course you would point out the need for indicating during a 3-point turn as this is part of the manoeuvre!!

Funny how 2 teachers have told you the same thing. I teach adults too and I can tell you that it is a myth that all adults can spell and most young people can't, one that is put about by people like you who have never taught and want to make point without having hard evidence to back it up.

Really?


I don't go around spreading rumours about teaching. I leave that to teachers who seem to like nothing better than singing to the world they know all there is to know about everything and have a hard time beuing corrected inside or outside of school. Now, do yer job proper like and correct the little bleeder's spelling mistakes before I come up with more myths to spread about you lot.

 

[The Large One]

This is down to a teacher assessing the capability of a child and responding accordingly. Some children will never properly grasp spelling and grammar, much the same as some will not be able to cope with maths or foreign languages for example. Therefore a child that struggles with spelling will be continually marked down, despite potentially producing some really creative work. The children that can spell and are advancing can have these finer errors pointed out, while another maybe marked on the quality of content rather than the detail. The skill of the teacher is to ensure the development of all abilities of the class, not trying to pretend each child can achieve the same as the rest.

Sadly, OFSTED and continual targets has meant that this aspects of a teachers craft has been eroded in the search for good statistical results. As an educational consultant said to me not so long ago, some of the best schools he has been to have been 'average' OFSTED, while some 'outstanding' ones were clearly failing a large portion of their pupils, and not encouraging create thought and learning.

The point being, is that far from your concern that pupils don't develop, as I understand it, what Sidcup Seagull is outlining (as taught to both my kids at Primary) is to develop a child at their pace of learning, and ensure you are reaching goals for that individual at regular intervals. Phonics is a great example of learning to write sounding out words. It doesn't matter that the words are spelt incorrectly, the process of learning language is developing and being encouraged.

For the most part, I'd agree.

At my partner's school, because it's acknowledged that every child learns different things at different paces, they don't set targets, although they are always looking for continual advancement and improvement through learning - more so than through teaching. In fact, the only ones who set targets are the kids themselves.

 

[piersa]

The PC gang shout the loudest and hence are heard the most. The sensible majority are silent most of the time because we use common sense and have a life to get on with. If the silent majority stood up and made a big enough noise, the life barren PC brigade would get a big shock. Lothesome group of fools.

 

[The Large One]

The PC gang shout the loudest and hence are heard the most. The sensible majority are silent most of the time because we use common sense and have a life to get on with. If the silent majority stood up and made a big enough noise, the life barren PC brigade would get a big shock. Lothesome group of fools.

This is a thread about education, not Apple.

 

[ezzoud]

Therefore a child that struggles with spelling will be continually marked down, despite potentially producing some really creative work.

I think this is the nub of it. At some point in the last 20-30 years there appears to have been a shift in society (or maybe just in educational circles) so that "creativity" is valued above "accuracy".

For those of us that are over 40 and were taught to spell (and do mental arithmetic) "parrot fashion" we may find this shift strange and/or unacceptable.

At the risk of sounding "puffed up" as soon as I read any emails etc at work from people who believe "of" is a verb e.g "you should of done this yesterday" etc I tend to switch off immediately and not bother reading the rest of what they've written. I'd rather people were accurate rather than creative but perhaps that's just me (never having done anything creative ever)

 

[Storer 68]

For the most part, I'd agree.

At my partner's school, because it's acknowledged that every child learns different things at different paces, they don't set targets, although they are always looking for continual advancement and improvement through learning - more so than through teaching. In fact, the only ones who set targets are the kids themselves.

and if the kids don't set themselves any targets ?

I have to say it never occurred to me when I was at school. I had to pass exams and that was it. Not a target I set myself but one that was set by the educational system.

 

[Nibble]

I think this is the nub of it. At some point in the last 20-30 years there appears to have been a shift in society (or maybe just in educational circles) so that "creativity" is valued above "accuracy".

For those of us that are over 40 and were taught to spell (and do mental arithmetic) "parrot fashion" we may find this shift strange and/or unacceptable.

At the risk of sounding "puffed up" as soon as I read any emails etc at work from people who believe "of" is a verb e.g "you should of done this yesterday" etc I tend to switch off immediately and not bother reading the rest of what they've written. I'd rather people were accurate rather than creative but perhaps that's just me (never having done anything creative ever)

I agree. But why should creativity and accuracy be mutually exclusive? I work in one of the most creative fields around and I still make sure I spell and punctuate to the best of my ability.

 

[The Large One]

and if the kids don't set themselves any targets ?

I have to say it never occurred to me when I was at school. I had to pass exams and that was it. Not a target I set myself but one that was set by the educational system.

I'm talking mostly about kids from the age of 2, up to the age of 11.

The kids motivate themselves within the environment created in the classroom. Those who don't or are struggling are assisted by the teachers.

 

[Nibble]

I'm talking mostly about kids from the age of 2, up to the age of 11.

The kids motivate themselves within the environment created in the classroom. Those who don't or are struggling are assisted by the teachers.

They should be assisted by the assistants, they should be taught by the teachers

 

[DerbyGull]

My son,11, came home from school yesterday,a bit upset and confused,when I asked him what the matter was he replied that he had been told off by two of the teachers and had 20mins. golden time taken away (this is free time at the end of the week to play on computers etc..) It turns out that during a football match he was playing in,he kept scoring goals and subsequently had been told not to as it was unsporting and he should have been giving the other team more of a chance! I just don`t know what to say,needless to say I am going up the School to see the Headmistress to find out what the f*** is going on,but,what chance does this country stand if this is the type of total bollocks of an education our kids are receiving.No wonder the Country is in such a f***ing mess!!

Sorry but I thought this thread was about PC gone mad?

 

[ezzoud]

I agree. But why should creativity and accuracy be mutually exclusive? I work in one of the most creative fields around and I still make sure I spell and punctuate to the best of my ability

Well quite. Sort out the basics and then worry about the difficult stuff I say.

It appears, however, that those posters that work in education are saying that spelling is too difficult for a large proportion of students to ever master so it's better not to spend much time on it and concentrate on areas they find easier.

I don't accept that myself but then I don't find spelling difficult. Alternatively, maybe I care enough to check words I'm unsure about or use different words if I don't have a dictionary to hand and that's where things are going wrong in the classroom - the mentality seems to be "it's too difficult to get it right all the time so don't worry about it being right at all" (which some might say is the essence of "Dumbing Down").

Again it might be because of my outlook but when I look at the "Literacy" work my middle son did last year (Year 6 end of primary school) he writes excellent poems and stories but I can't tell you what any of them are about because I'm too busy cringing at the spelling errors.

 

[The Large One]

They should be assisted by the assistants, they should be taught by the teachers

I suspect you're not too familiar with this model of education. In this instance, the emphasis is on the children learning, not the teachers teaching. The teachers are there to assist the child.

It's a more wide-ranging approach to learning, above and beyond, as the other poster put it 'being taught parrot-fashion', where you learn all the important aspects of English, maths, art, music, science, nature etc. and about the nature of self-esteem, teamwork, civility, manners, hard work and so on. It has been going on for over 100 years, and is very effective.