[News] Middle East conflict

[de la zouch]

Yes it's a perfectly reasonable question. Why not when you speak of "it takes balls" ( a vey sick comment). If you are a dual-national fair enough, if you are Israeli, as I've said before I doubt your motives for being here

You doubt my motives for being here.
Ok Dave, that’s some accusation/ insinuation
I think I will exit this conversation, it’s like being trapped in a pub, with a on my chest, with Corbyn, Owen jones, Howard becket. Basically the pointy finger mob are out in force. And not a brain cell between them

 

[de la zouch]

Hi, historian here, so I certainly don’t. Therefore, I will ask the questions you avoided answering.

Do Palestinians have a right to exist? Do they have a right to a homeland not illegally occupied?

Note that the “illegal occupation” in this sense refers not to the state of Israel as a whole but to the illegally annexed territories by settlers on the West Bank. If you’d like me to include the Golan Heights (even though this is obviously not Palestinian territory) too then do let me know.

My response wasn’t to you, it was to the incredibly simplistic and incorrect claim by someone else. Historian, really?

 

[Zeberdi]

They voted them in, knowing full well what their manifesto highlights meant to the general populus of the Strip....

Who’s ‘they’? Half of the Gazan population weren’t even born in 2005 - only 7% of those alive in Gaza today voted for the Hamas Party in the Palestinian Assembly. Hamas later kicked the pro-Western Assembly out of Gaza by violent force and there’s been no election since. It is a sickening posture to say that a civilian is a legitimate military target because of how they may have voted.

Post-election polls indicated anyway that Hamas' victory was due largely to Palestinians wanting to end corruption in government rather than any real support the organisation's political manifesto.

We seem to have wandered off piste here - the point is ( that you and I were discussing) is that launching attacks on Yemen and attacking Lebanon is not going to bring peace Imo.

They need to sit at the table with Hamas, Hezbollah and Houthis with Jordan, Egypt and the US and Saudi Arabia AND Palestinian representatives from the West Bank.

It’s distasteful to sit down with your enemies and negotiate for peace but what is the alternative here?

Not to mention the 10s of 1,000s of civilians being killed in these hostilities but the pollution Israel and the Houthis are causing in the Red Sea area is criminal - the Houthis targeting oil tankers and the Israelis targeting refineries and oil depots.

 

[aftershavedave]

You doubt my motives for being here.
Ok Dave, that’s some accusation/ insinuation
I think I will exit this conversation, it’s like being trapped in a pub, with a on my chest, with Corbyn, Owen jones, Howard becket. Basically the pointy finger mob are out in force. And not a brain cell between them

The answer I expected, well done. I'd say that "that takes balls" takes the biscuit for the most horrible thing I've ever read here

 

[A1X]

My response wasn’t to you, it was to the incredibly simplistic and incorrect claim by someone else. Historian, really?

So that’s now twice you’ve dodged answering the question. Is it because you can’t or because you won’t answer?

Here’s your third opportunity. Do Palestinians have a right to exist? Do they have a right to a homeland not illegally occupied?

 

[aolstudios]

We. We. We? Are you British or Israeli, is your faith more important than your nationality? Just for the record, so we know where you are coming from.

& he's off...

 

[Zeberdi]

You’re over simplifying it as many do when it comes to the Middle East.

Far too many bring it down to Jews (inevitably bad) v Muslims (inevitably victims) without mentioning that Shia and Sunni would happily rip each other to bits.

And as we have both acknowledged before, ‘Jews’ are certainly not an homogeneous group that see eye to eye with each other on what is happening - extremists and agendas on all sides - how can one begin to explain the nuances to those who insist on polarising everything into ‘us and them’?

De La Zouch and I are both Jewish for example but on a very different part of the political spectrum and religious understanding when it comes to Israel.

 

[de la zouch]

& he's off...

I could not quite believe what I read, utterly astonishing

 

[aftershavedave]

I could not quite believe what I read, utterly astonishing

Oh do f*** off."It takes balls" you have no humanity

 

[Triggaaar]

But hey it’s Isreal we don’t have the right to defend ourselves

Eh? Israel have done more than defend themselves against Hamas. It's been a slaughter of everyone.

 

[Guinness Boy]

And as we have both acknowledged before, ‘Jews’ are certainly not an homogeneous group that see eye to eye with each other on what is happening - extremists and agendas on all sides - how can one begin to explain the nuances to those who insist on polarising everything into ‘us and them’?

De La Zouch and I are both Jewish for example but on a very different part of the political spectrum and religious understanding when it comes to Israel.

Yes, exactly.

My daughter’s best friend is part of a liberal, fun loving Jewish family. They hate Netenyahu but feel targeted by other Western Liberals.

This is no way binary. It’s not a football match, it’s the fall out from thousands of years of culture and worship wars.

 

[de la zouch]

The answer I expected, well done. I'd say that "that takes balls" takes the biscuit for the most horrible thing I've ever read here

Sorry what do you mean, the answer you expected. You’ve literally gone full tin hat.
Doubting my motives like I’m some Israeli plant
I’m so sorry you’re mortally offended about a quip at the expense of murderous terrorists

 

[de la zouch]

Eh? Israel have done more than defend themselves against Hamas. It's been a slaughter of everyone.

Lowest civilian to combatant death rate of any modern war

 

[aftershavedave]

Sorry what do you mean, the answer you expected. You’ve literally gone full tin hat.
Doubting my motives like I’m some Israeli plant
I’m so sorry you’re mortally offended about a quip at the expense of murderous terrorists

A "quip" f*** you

 

[de la zouch]

A "quip" f*** you

For the man in the tin hat
The definition of a quip
“A clever usually taunting remark” id say I nailed it

 

[Guinness Boy]

For the man in the tin hat
The definition of a quip
“A clever usually taunting remark” id say I nailed it

A "quip" f*** you

Knock it on the head chaps.

 

[Triggaaar]

Lowest civilian to combatant death rate of any modern war

How many civilian deaths have their been, and how many terrorist deaths have their been?

 

[Zeberdi]

That leaves the Houthi, Hamas, Hezbollah jihadist nutcases ( Fatah too I guess)..... NONE of these would present an ensuring threat to a military machine honed over 70 odd years.

He has repeatedly said Israel’s enemies ( ie the axis of resistance) must be ‘defeated’ to stop Israel being ‘annihilated‘ and ‘the Jews driven into the sea’ - the same justification we keep hearing from those Netanyahu supporters implicitly justifying the slaughter of thousands of innocent children and when others question the wisdom of these multilateral attacks on Lebanon, Gaza and now Yemen.

So why is Netanyahu proactively trying to destroy them then if NONE of them are a threat? Surely coming to the table and negotiating should be the easier option?

 

[heathgate]

He has repeatedly said Israel’s enemies ( ie the axis of resistance) must be ‘defeated’ to stop Israel being ‘annihilated‘ and ‘the Jews driven into the sea’ - the same justification we keep hearing from those Netanyahu supporters implicitly justifying the slaughter of thousands of innocent children and when others question the wisdom of these multilateral attacks on Lebanon, Gaza and now Yemen.

So why is Netanyahu proactively trying to destroy them then if NONE of them are a threat? Surely coming to the table and negotiating should be the easier option?

Naah.... all these jihadist actors have declared their desire to kill all Jews... they are a threat to the citizens of Israel because of the random firing of low tech missiles in the general direction of Israeli citizenry, as long as they continue on that path, Israel will defend itself.... there have been talks and negotiations for more than 50 years, the militants, and their support, do not want peace, there is no chance that a political settlement is reachable..... therefore the Israelis will continue to hit back....

The old adage is true... if the Jihadist/Palestinian groups laid down their arms tomorrow, there will be peace..... if the Israelis laid theirs down, there would be murderous carnage.

 

[SeagullinExile]

You said Arab/Muslim world. Don’t the Saudis count?

Interestingly, Saudi has just come out in support of Lebenon.

From the BBC tonight -

Saudi Arabia says it stands with Lebanon Published at 22:20 British Summer Time
22:20 BST​

In a statement issued just moments ago, Saudi Arabia says it stands in support of Lebanon and calls for the preservation of the country's "sovereignty and territorial integrity".

The Saudi foreign ministry said it had watched the events of recent days in Lebanon with "grave concern", though it made no made mention of the assassination of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah.

It also called on the international community to work to protect regional security and minimise the humanitarian consequences of the conflict.