[News] Middle East conflict

[rippleman]

That's not whataboutery.
I'm highlighting that there doesn't seem to be any means that Jews are allowed to defend themselves against a foe whose stated aim is to kill them all.
This is defence against a war of annihilation. On several fronts. Maiming your enemy's combatants is kind of normal in war.
But unacceptable for Jews, evidently

My bolding.

Yes, it is. But maiming (or killing) tens of thousands of innocent non-combatants including children really isn't "normal". In another time, at another place, it would be called genocide.

And please don't make this a "Jewish" issue. It really isn't. I have marched with Jews on pro-Palestinian marches over the attrocities in Gaza. I have seen Jews protesting on the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The problem lies square at the door of the extreme rightwing government of the State of Israel. It is disingenuous in the extreme to try to make this into an anti-Jewish issue. It isn't.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You can't be sure that it will achieve nothing useful. There are examples in history of terrorist organisations renouncing violence and embracing peaceful, political means, and examples of terrorist organisations pretty much ceasing to exist. The IRA as the former and the Tamil Tigers as the latter. Also, Frelimo, Swapo, Sandanista etc. etc.

Sorry, not following your point. I was saying that it doesn't matter whether we think that the collateral deaths associated with the pager bombs means that this act is not as bad as 9/11 or is just as bad (in a game of terror top trumps). I think it means 'not as bad' but I don't think that what I think will affect anything going forward, for the reasons explained.

And related to that, I don't think that the pager bombs has made it any more or less likely that Hamas or Hezbollah will make peace with Israel (that was not my point by the way, my point was about whether what we think about it will have any influence on whether Hamas or Hezbollah will make peace with Israel (and indeed, vice versa)).

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

It's a very complex, awful situation that has been going on for close to 80 years with 2 full-blown wars and continual border incidents. Impossible, imo, to say with any degree of conviction whether the Israeli response is acceptable or not without knowing how the conflict will evolve. If you think that's a cop out then so be it.

I do think it is a cop out.

You do not care either, that is your opinion and your certainly allowed to hold it, but it speaks volumes to me.

I am done holding a conversation with you, because I can be persuaded with valid points and arguments.
You clearly have an allegiance to a death machine that kills just as indiscriminately as Hezbollah and Hamas.

Good luck with your life.

 

[aolstudios]

oh please. Hezbollah is in no position to conduct a war of annihilation. they are terrorists who greatly impact on the peaceful living of those in northen Israel. taking out their leaders in assassinations is fair game. shooting soliders on the battlefield, standard warfare. deliberatly injuring soliders, posing no immediate threat, in public spaces is just nasty.

Hezbollah & Hamas are armed & commanded by the Iranian regime (& Qatar), whose stated intention is also to kill all Jews.
I'm very comfortable with 'being nasty' to any of the above. None of whom are the tiniest bit better than Nazis

 

[Shaktarman]

Without wishing to divert the thread but in direct response to your post, so what is your view of the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

No that’s fine - I actually thought this when I wrote it. That is a different case to this of course, but Putin and those Russians going along with it are a disgrace. I appreciate I probably now look a hypocrite, although I don’t think Ukraine are bombing Russia & killing innocent civilians that I know of (I actually don’t read the news on this shit as it’s too harrowing).

 

[aolstudios]

But what is acceptable for jews evidently is indiscriminately bomb civilians, hospitals and schools killing 43000. 43000 let that sink in....

Is that an appropriate response ?

You keep obsessively quoting that figure. Which comes directly from Hamas. & even they recently had to admit their figures were wildly exaggerated. Still if it makes you feel good, you do you

 

[aolstudios]

Zelenskyy is the first Jewish president of Ukraine; with Volodymyr Groysman as prime minister, Ukraine became the first country other than Israel to simultaneously have a Jewish head of state and head of government.

I'm well aware of that but Ukraine isn't generally viewed as 'Jews', is it

 

[hans kraay fan club]

You keep obsessively quoting that figure. Which comes directly from Hamas. & even they recently had to admit their figures were wildly exaggerated. Still if it makes you feel good, you do you

Would 30,000 be okay?

25,000?

 

[aolstudios]

The objective of Hezbollah and Hamas is to destroy the State of Isreal though, isn't it? They are supported by Iran and Syria who also have that stated objective. Iranian leaders have repeated it several times.

Well, exactly

 

[Blue3]

This if proven to be as a result of the state of Israel would be an act of terroisum and our government should be applying strong sanctions to the state of Israel.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

would have liked to think so, however the way they have prosecuted their war since makes one suspicious. they have no intent to resolve the crisis other than through subjugation of Gaza, and seem to have started on West Bank too.

Private Eye have been mocking Israel's tendency to go in for 'smiting' for decades. Israel always responds to an attack by returning the insult many-fold. They have done this time and time again. I wasn't remotely surprised by the Israeli response to the attack from Gaza. If anything I was expecting it to be even more indiscriminate.

In fact I will flip this around - Hamas attacked Israel precisely to trigger the response from Israel anyone half awake knew would follow, in order to curry sympathy from those of us who feel the Palestinians have been mistreated, and dislike Bibi and his gang. I am certainly in that camp. The Palestinians have been treated very badly for decades. And Bibi is a nasty antidemocratic shit who has sold his soul to the zealots in return for power. But I am not prepared to do what Hamas want: for me to forget that, on this occasion, they started it.

 

[aolstudios]

Would 30,000 be okay?

25,000?

You tell me. It's a war. What would've been acceptable in ww2? (Crucially, including combatants - even Hamas have had to admit they're included).
My point was that he was obsessively quoting a figure that was absolute bullshit.
Also, let's not forget. Without October 7th, that figure would read 0.
(although the figures include a big bunch that would've died of natural causes anyway)

 

[mickybha]

 

[borat]

This if proven to be as a result of the state of Israel would be an act of terroisum and our government should be applying strong sanctions to the state of Israel.

Very wishful thinking. Israel is untouchable for a variety of reasons

 

[Wardy's twin]

Forgive me if I have this wrong.
1: As I understand it Israel and Lebanon have been at odds for decades.
2: There have been long standing border issues with Israeli settlers ousting locals, more than 200,000 displaced.
3: They are obviously a terrorist group involved and have been firing rockets in support of the Palestinian brothers as they see them ever since the start of the this whole thing.
4: I think (something I should not do) they are firing rockets in support and as a measure for them to say, Israel we will not let you take anymore of our land, and you will not do to us what Israel have done to the Palestinians by murdering and displacing thousands.

For every action there is a reaction.

Israel doesn't have a problem with Lebanon , Israel has an issue with the Palestinians who moved there after the creation of the Israeli state and from whom were drafted PLO fighters to attack Israel. The majority of the original Lebanese people (Christian arabs & Druze) do not want the Palestinians there and fought against them with the help of the Israelis . Hezbollah moved in and are too powerful for the Lebanese to control so they basically use the southern part of Lebanon to attack Israel.

By settlers do you mean those Jews that settled in Israel in the late 1940s? Do you believe the state of Israel shouldn't exist ?

Hezbollah is driven by Iran and its agenda not what the Palestinians want.

Israel is not after taking land from Lebanon , it would prefer that there was a stable, neutral government there as there was for the first 30 years of its existence i.e. during the 1947, 56, 67 and 73 wars Israel did not have to worry about large attacks from the North.

In all the comments nothing is ever said about the destabilisation of Lebanon by the first the PLO and then Hezbollah which has resulted in killings.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

You tell me. It's a war. What would've been acceptable in ww2? (Crucially, including combatants - even Hamas have had to admit they're included).

Civilians killed in indiscriminate bombings? None.

My point was that he was obsessively quoting a figure that was absolute bullshit.

Regardless of him repeating the specific figure - the figure itself is scarcely relevant to the point he's is making. As you know.

Also, let's not forget. Without October 7th, that figure would read 0.

As if. It would have been much, much lower, but it hasn't been '0' at any point, in many, many years.

(although the figures include a big bunch that would've died of natural causes anyway)

Oh I see - you are just taking the piss. More fool me for engaging.

Have a nice day.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

For every action there is a reaction.

In physics, yes.

But in the humanitarian world this is called "an eye for an eye".
If this were applied, the whole world would be blind ....

The human approach is E+R=O
When an EVENT occurs a RESPONSE can be chosen (including nil) - the RESPONSE chosen will dictate the OUTCOME
Simple in micro events but macro events like terrorism it's easier said then done.

I have no answers.
What I do observe is that it appears (to me) that 99% of global conflict is either religion or political based.
If we could just irradiate the root-cause, maybe that would fix the problem(s)?

A sad and dangerous world we live in ....

 

[aolstudios]

Civilians killed in indiscriminate bombings? None.


Regardless of him repeating the specific figure - the figure itself is scarcely relevant to the point he's is making. As you know.

As if. It would have been much, much lower, but it hasn't been '0' at any point, in many, many years.


Oh I see - you are just taking the piss. More fool me for engaging.

Have a nice day.

Israel's bombing in this war has been no more indiscriminate than the allies in ww2.
If that was your point?

& I'm absolutely not taking the piss. Not for a second

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

You keep obsessively quoting that figure. Which comes directly from Hamas. & even they recently had to admit their figures were wildly exaggerated. Still if it makes you feel good, you do you

and you continually put a laughing emoji when i do, glad you find it funny even if it is half that amount which I doubt.

Done talking to you too, you seem to have the same agender.

 

[aolstudios]

and you continually put a laughing emoji when i do, glad you find it funny even if it half that amount.

Done talking to you too, you seem to have the same agender.

Rightio