Luis Suarez

[Bold Seagull]

But Suerez admitted using certain words. The independent advisor to the FA has deemed these words were offensive and inappropriate.

Exactly. The use of the words in question are not in doubt. Why, when clearly both players are involved in a scuffle, are you going to call someone a term that you think is endearment? Suarez may not have realised the full ramifications of the term, but he knew enough that it would upset his opponent.

 

[Commander]

In many other workplaces, if you racially abuse someone you can expect the sack. Missing eight games of football is not a harsh sentence considering its divisive impact and the fact that demeans the player involved, the perpetrator, other people who experience racial abuse, and the sport in general.

Yes. But in most workplaces you would also get the sack for nutting someone. But you don't in football. So I don't really see how that is a valid argument.

Oooh, good one, that could open a new can of worms. The all-white FA, in the true spirit of the British Empire, is trying to force its cultural values onto other people. Being British of course they are 'right' and all foreigners are 'wrong'.

There is something in this, as I mentioned earlier, the rest of the world don't seem as bothered about the whole racism thing as us in the UK. Why? Because we are right and they are wrong? Because they are backwards and need to be educated and made more civilised like us?

Isn't that what we used to do in Africa? Educate those black savages to try to make them conform to our ways?

If you are annoyed at this minefield of acceptable and unacceptable terms, maybe you should direct it at the racists for continuing to contaminate previously neutral descriptive terms.

I wouldn't say I'm annoyed, I'd say 'bemused' is probably a better term.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Never thought I'd find myself defending Suarez, but I think this is very harsh punishment from the FA. In this case I would have thought it is the job of the FA to educate Luis as to what is and is acceptable in English culture compared to being in Uruguay.

Harsh maybe, but it sends a very clear message.

The FA to educate Suarez on what is acceptable? How pampered and detached from their personal responsibilities are you willing to allow footballers to become?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Exactly. The use of the words in question are not in doubt. Why, when clearly both players are involved in a scuffle, are you going to call someone a term that you think is endearment? Suarez may not have realised the full ramifications of the term, but he knew enough that it would upset his opponent.

Agree.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

I'm just going by what has commonly been reported which is that Suarez admitted using certain words, so it was not one person's word against another. The FA then brought in a specialist QC to look into whether Suarez's explaination for using such words, and just as importantly the context in which they were used, could be construed as insulting and of a racial nature. The QC decided this was the case.

Yes, a precedent has been set, that if proven a player used insulting language of a racial nature then they will get a hefty ban and a fine. Surely this is a good thing? If it's just one person's word against anothers then I imagine that the case will be dropped due to lack of evidence. The difference here is that the charged admitted using language of a racial nature.

Using language of a racial nature is not necessarily the same as using language with a racist intent. That is where the confusion seems to be lying.

Currently, we don't know the content of the full verdict. However, what has been released so far is consistent with Suarez admitting to using the word 'negrito'. Is it possible to construe that word as insulting and as racist? Yes, especially if you don't know what it means and how it is commonly used, and especially if you hear it as sounding like the N word. Does it mean that Suarez was definitely using the term in a racist way? So far, no evidence has been released to suggest this.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Using language of a racial nature is not necessarily the same as using language with a racist intent. That is where the confusion seems to be lying.

Currently, we don't know the content of the full verdict. However, what has been released so far is consistent with Suarez admitting to using the word 'negrito'. Is it possible to construe that word as insulting and as racist? Yes, especially if you don't know what it means and how it is commonly used, and especially if you hear it as sounding like the N word. Does it mean that Suarez was definitely using the term in a racist way? So far, no evidence has been released to suggest this.

What we do know is that an experenced, specialist and independent QC deemed the terms to be used in a racist way. I'm prepared to put my faith in this guy's professionalism and experience.

 

[Commander]

I'd say that says more about how ineffectual FIFA and UEFA are. The fines they've handed out show how little they care about racism.
The fact that it is not taken so seriously elsewhere is not an argument for us taking a more lenient approach.
It's a pathetic defence to say that this sort of behaviour is acceptable in Uruguay. Arrogant and ignorant. Its not acceptable here.

Why? Because we in England say so? Because our way is correct and their way is wrong? Because we need to educate and force them to use our customs and cultures? How very racist of us.

It makes me laugh the way Uruguay is being depicted as some backward South American hell-hole where black people are still burned at the stake. Has anyone actually been there? Because it's the most relaxed, safest, friendliest and most peaceful country in South America.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As an aside I have got a raging hangover and dodgy stomach brought on by excessive red meat and red wine and half a quiche.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Exactly. The use of the words in question are not in doubt. Why, when clearly both players are involved in a scuffle, are you going to call someone a term that you think is endearment?.

Maybe, if you were in the Uruguayan league, that might be the right kind of thing to do to diffuse the situation.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Why? Because we in England say so? Because our way is correct and their way is wrong? Because we need to educate and force them to use our customs and cultures? How very racist of us.

It makes me laugh the way Uruguay is being depicted as some backward South American hell-hole where black people are still burned at the stake. Has anyone actually been there? Because it's the most relaxed, safest, friendliest and most peaceful country in South America.

I will agree that Uruguay is probably the most advanced of all the South American countries, has a strong economy, issues all its kids with a laptop for their education etc. It is also has a 95% white European population, mainly decendants of Italy and Spain. That in itself does not make them racist, but given such a small number of their population are of black origin, I'd suggestion labelling a person of that origin any term that distinguishes them from the rest of their population is inherently racist, even if they deem it acceptable. I've not yet heard an ethnic minority Uruguayan comment on this however.

I would never go to a foreign land without researching their customs and cultures so that I knew I wasn't going to upset anyone. Regardless of whether in England we are different from other parts of the world is irrelevant as Suarez is a resident in this country, and has a duty to respect our laws, customs and whatever.

You keep suggesting that we are educating the rest of the world which we are not in this case, we are merely enforcing rules and regulations that would apply to anyone of us in this country, and so why should a foreign person be excempt, you wouldn't be if you were working in the far east for example and didn't respect their laws as a visitor.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I will agree that Uruguay is probably the most advanced of all the South American countries, has a strong economy, issues all its kids with a laptop for their education etc. It is also has a 95% white European population, mainly decendants of Italy and Spain. That in itself does not make them racist, but given such a small number of their population are of black origin, I'd suggestion labelling a person of that origin any term that distinguishes them from the rest of their population is inherently racist, even if they deem it acceptable. I've not yet heard an ethnic minority Uruguayan comment on this however.

I would never go to a foreign land without researching their customs and cultures so that I knew I wasn't going to upset anyone. Regardless of whether in England we are different from other parts of the world is irrelevant as Suarez is a resident in this country, and has a duty to respect our laws, customs and whatever.

You keep suggesting that we are educating the rest of the world which we are not in this case, we are merely enforcing rules and regulations that would apply to anyone of us in this country, and so why should a foreign person be excempt, you wouldn't be if you were working in the far east for example and didn't respect their laws as a visitor.

On this educating south America line, I think Commander might be confusing us with the USA?

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Why? Because we in England say so? Because our way is correct and their way is wrong? Because we need to educate and force them to use our customs and cultures? How very racist of us.

It makes me laugh the way Uruguay is being depicted as some backward South American hell-hole where black people are still burned at the stake. Has anyone actually been there? Because it's the most relaxed, safest, friendliest and most peaceful country in South America.

Absolutely.

In English polite conversation, people resist identifying the racial or ethnic characteristics of others as different, even though they can see it with their own eyes. Uruguayans generally seem to have a much more relaxed, open approach around identifying racial or ethnic features of others. As shown by some of the nicknames given to players, difference is a cause for being playful with language and of celebration rather something to hide. Who can say with certainty that the English 'denial-of-difference-because-we-are-all-the-same' way is better?

 

[Acker79]

The FA must have a watertight case against him, because to brand a multil-millionaire a racist, is a very risky thing to do, unless they have 100% proof.

I would think if there is an appeal, this one could go through the courts. But as I say, the FAs lawyers must think its watertight.

What is amazing though, if true, and £40000 fine, yet when a set of fans at an international match make monley nosies, or throw banana at black players, they get find less than that.

But then thats our FA for you.

According to the liverpool statement, the judge made it clear that they did not believe suarez was racist, and his crime is using racist language so it's not a case of branding him a racist. (There was a discussion in another thread when this first happened whether using racist language made you racist if you were only using it because you knew it would upset people rather than because you believed what you were saying.)


I may be a little cynical, I think it's either:
1) Punish suarez so they can say they are taking racism seriously, so when they clear England captain john terry it's because he's innocent, as they've shown they are willing to punish stars if they are, not just that they are protecting the national team
or
2) Give the punishment, suspecting it to be overturned on appeal, and spin that it was a technicality, but the sentence shows they are strongly against racism (both as a replacement for actually doing anything more effective, and as a dig at Blatter and FIFA/UEFA).

 

[Bold Seagull]

Maybe, if you were in the Uruguayan league, that might be the right kind of thing to do to diffuse the situation.

He has played 52 full internationals since 2007, played 110 times over 4 seasons in Holland, and been in the UK since the summer. If he doesn't realise the term is offensive to some by now, then he must have severe learning problems.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

Even though the incident happened in the heat of a footie match I cannot condone what Suarez said. However it does pain me that the 'injured' party is Evra who is not exactly the best role model himself, but thats no excuse for him racially abused. There is some suggestion that Evra verbally retaliated but does not seem to have been taken into account. Secondly it concerns me that the case has been determined without witnesses and appears to be based on one players word against anothers. However such cases often hang on how the offended party perceives they have abused.

Suarez has to abide by rules of our society. At least the FA have acted robustly sending out a wider message that racism will not be tolerated. Poyet is getting more flak in the 5 live phone this morning. Poyet should have tempered his own comments in support of Suarez by saying that what might be acceptable in Uruguay is not acceptable here. The wider problem is culturally how 'racism' is understood across the world. Historically both FIFA and UEFA have been weak in acting on such matters which has not sent out the right message. If they had acted more robustly in the past in educating the footballing world then maybe incidents like this would be less prevalent.

Having said that John Terry (an FA appointed England Captain, so called role model etc and no excuse not being aware of what may / may not constitute racism) will not have a leg to stand on if the CPS decide there is credible evidence that he abused Ferdinand. His case will then be subject to a legal process and if found guilty subject to sanctions outside footie. I can see him being made an example of.

 

[Wilko]

This is very strange argument. Lots of things are preferable to being beaten up, but it doesn't make them right or acceptable.

Personally I do take offence to certain language.

I find it offensive too and I have never said it is right or acceptable? I just believe we as a nation massively amplify racism into the world's worst offence. It is a horrible act of course but often takes front page headlines whist cases of rape, domestic violence etc are filtered down from the media highlight.

 

[Questions]

As an aside I have got a raging hangover and dodgy stomach brought on by excessive red meat and red wine and half a quiche.

You see how times have changed in this country because we have fought for freedoms and equalities. It now means someone can openly admit to eating quiche on an internet forum. Well done you.

 

[Common as Mook]

Hungover so a cut and paste job froma post I made after the Gus interview came out. Might be pertinent, might not, but felt like posting it:

My opinion on this and the wider issue for what's it worth. I've tried to stay out of the "football/race" conversations as much as possible, but what Gus has said actually struck a chord with me.

Some on here will know, I'm from a mixed race background. I have also played football at various levels from Sunday League in Brighton to rural backwater leagues in Bristol and Cornwall. During 15 or so years I have encountered racial abuse. I wouldn't say it was regular but it certainly was more regular than I would have liked. What Gus said struck a chord because the thing that was furthest from mind was reporting the issue to the local FA or the police. I'd much prefer to smash the perpatrator in the next tackle or deliver a cheeky 'accidental' elbow in the next header. On my part, that is probably the wrong course of action, but that is me and how I would have dealt with the situation. I feel a little (and I stress the word little) uneasy with people who havent suffered this abuse telling me how I should and shouldn't react to racist abuse.

The whole thing has got totally out of hand. Of course, any racism or generalisation has absolutely no place in football, but there needs to be a certain amount of 'manning' up that goes with it. The thing about the two high profile cases at the moment that grates with me at the moment is the club/personal rivalry that is tagged along with it. Would Evra have complained so vehemently had it been, for example, a Wolves player? Would Anton and QPR made such a deal of it had it been an Aston Villa player who hadn't disposed his brother as England captain? I may be being unfair here, but something just doesn't sit right....

All this being said; I am livid that Poyet has even needed to say anything about this. We have a MASSIVE game tomorrow and it has diverted from this. It is fairly clear that he isn't a racist. Stupid, and outdated maybe; but not a racist.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Even though the incident happened in the heat of a footie match I cannot condone what Suarez said. However it does pain me that the 'injured' party is Evra who is not exactly the best role model himself, but thats no excuse for him racially abused. There is some suggestion that Evra verbally retaliated but does not seem to have been taken into account. Secondly it concerns me that the case has been determined without witnesses and appears to be based on one players word against anothers. However such cases often hang on how the offended party perceives they have abused.

Suarez has to abide by rules of our society. At least the FA have acted robustly sending out a wider message that racism will not be tolerated. Poyet is getting more flak in the 5 live phone this morning. Poyet should have tempered his own comments in support of Suarez by saying that what might be acceptable in Uruguay is not acceptable here. The wider problem is culturally how 'racism' is understood across the world. Historically both FIFA and UEFA have been weak in acting on such matters which has not sent out the right message. If they had acted more robustly in the past in educating the footballing world then maybe incidents like this would be less prevalent.

Having said that John Terry (an FA appointed England Captain, so called role model etc and no excuse not being aware of what may / may not constitute racism) will not have a leg to stand on if the CPS decide there is credible evidence that he abused Ferdinand. His case will then be subject to a legal process and if found guilty subject to sanctions outside footie. I can see him being made an example of.

Oh god. Please tell me this is from his previous comments and he has not gone back on the radio today.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Why? Because we in England say so? Because our way is correct and their way is wrong? Because we need to educate and force them to use our customs and cultures? How very racist of us.

It makes me laugh the way Uruguay is being depicted as some backward South American hell-hole where black people are still burned at the stake. Has anyone actually been there? Because it's the most relaxed, safest, friendliest and most peaceful country in South America.

No, not because our way is correct and their way is wrong...
When you move to a different culture it's basic good manners to behave in a way that is not considered offensive there. I wouldn't consider that racist of us, just as I wouldn't consider myself to be a victim of racism if I was censured for behaviour that's considered fine here, but not acceptable where I happened to be - I'm sure you can think of examples...
At no point have I depicted Uruguay in the way that you suggest. I'd love to visit - I've heard so many positive things about the place.
But here, during an argument, to stress someones race to strengthen your insult is considered racist. People have fought against this sort of behaviour (which was nigh on acceptable in the 70s) over several decades, and we are at a point where it just doesn't happen much anymore.
It's not a case of forcing Suarez to 'use our customs and cultures', but surely he shouldn't be arrogant enough to think that he can ignore what's considered unacceptable here?
Suarez, while working in our culture, should not engage in behaviour likely to offend and cause upset.