London firefighters to strike on bonfire night

[clapham_gull]

Haven't got much of an opinion on this, having just returned from holiday and just read up on it.

The shift changes don't appear to be about saving money or (as was pointed out above) a necessary reaction to the "needs" of the general public.

Seems to be really about the authorities wanting to be able to do more community work which is fair enough.

However, as for the 12 hour day shifts I can fully understand why the fire fighters would want a "normal" (as normal as the job is) day shift and make up the longer hours during the night.

I'd imagine that's everything about being able to have as normal a life outside of work for their family etc... ? It's probably easier to do that if the bulk of your hours are taking place when your family are in bed.

I've always resisted jobs that require you to work 12 hours, alternating between night and day because I know they can affect your health quite badly. Thinking about it, if I was forced to work like that - I'd prefer their existing shift pattern.

For days off between shifts - you can write off at least one of them, probably two although some people obviously cope better than others. Your body (and mind) requires time to shift back onto the other pattern. I'd imagine the first day back on the other shift is a "killer", if you get my drift.

 

[Lurker]

I've never fancied working shifts of any description ... not 8am to 8pm, not 6pm to 9am, not any of them?
.... so I've never applied for any job with shifts.

I've never fancied walking into burning buildings or getting shot or dealing with drunks with knives?
.... so I've never applied for any job with built in danger.

When did press-ganging start for the Fire Service?

Every firefighter applies for the post with their eyes wide open surely?
Do they honestly not know what they're letting themselves in for when they apply?

.... yet the job has always been massively oversubscribed hasn't it? Or is that just an urban myth?

I'm not going to knock any firefighter .... I think they're prepared to do something that I'm not .... I respect them for that, but please stop pleading firefighters as a special case?
They choose to do it, nobody makes them .... and they all know there are a lot of other people out there ready to take their place given half a chance?

Why are we therefore given the holier than thou attitude by their supporters?
Yes they go into burning buildings, yes they pick up body parts from horrendous accidents, yes they do all manner of horrible things that I don't want to do ..... but it's the job they chose to do?

NOBODY MAKES THEM DO IT!

Striking on Bonfire Night cannot be justified in any way or form in my opinion?
Why not strike on November 6th ... or 7th ... or 8th ......... ?

Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with an earlier poster who feels that there won't actually be a strike on the 5th, and it's just a cynical ploy of the Union to draw attention to the dispute ... but they may have miscalculated?
There was an overwhelming majority of ill-feeling towards firefighters amongst the people I heard discussing the issue today, and it was totally down to the timing of the threatened strike?

 

[beorhthelm]

The shift changes don't appear to be about saving money or (as was pointed out above) a necessary reaction to the "needs" of the general public.

Seems to be really about the authorities wanting to be able to do more community work which is fair enough.

However, as for the 12 hour day shifts I can fully understand why the fire fighters would want a "normal" (as normal as the job is) day shift and make up the longer hours during the night.

I'd imagine that's everything about being able to have as normal a life outside of work for their family etc... ? It's probably easier to do that if the bulk of your hours are taking place when your family are in bed.

i read somthing that suggested the highest call outs are 6-7pm ish, so if thats true there might be both a cost saving (overtime) and improvment to service in this change. as far as the shift pattern goes, they lose 2 hours with the family on later finish but gain it on the earlier start. 2day/2night/4 off shifts must be a pain either way, and that doesnt change.

 

[Castello]

Can't believe some of the nonsense that I've just read on this thread.
He currently works 2 days of 9 am to 6 pm immediately followed by 2 days of 6 pm to 9 am = 48 hour week. He then has 4 days off.
What they ae trying to do is make them work 2 days of 8 am to 8 pm immediately followed by 2 days of 8 pm to 8 am = 48 hours.
Problem is that, despite a lot of negotiating, they are having these new hours arbitrarily imposed on them whether they like it or not, and that is why they are taking industrial action.
I am very proud of him having joined the fire service relatively recently and some of the rubbish that has been directed at firefighters on this thread is, frankly, both misplaced and disgraceful!

You should be proud and he will have my support.

Yes you should be proud and please also convey my support to your son and his fellow firemen and women. Despite what some idiots have said here, most of us are proud we have such dedicated fire crews.

 

[Castello]

Whether the strike goes ahead on 5th November or not, to understand the tactic you'd have to see it from the point of view of the union leaders.

Their job and rightly so is to win as much for their members as possible by losing them as little pay as possible. If you can do that whilst winning public support even better. Ultimately though they are paid to get the best deal possible for their members for as little cost to their members. If you're a union member would you want any different from your Union.

Now when you negotiate with managememnt you are not dealing with people who are bleeding heart liberals just waiting to cave in. Youre dealing with cold hearted businessmen who have shown this by threatening to sack every firemen if they dont give up their contracts. The emotive issue of November 5th works both ways. They are just as able to get the strike called off by backing off from their threat and negotiating without threatening to sack staff. The union has a responsibility to get this point over to the public. Something that has been pointed out they have managed very well. It may seem cold hearted, but remember that the union leadership have been firemen and have seen tragedies themselves. If this strategy brings an end to the strike quicker, it could well save lives rather than lose them. Its a judgement call as to whats the best way.

As a public sector worker and union activist myself, you never want to take strike action. However sometimes you have to go for the smaller pain of a strike to avoid the bigger pain of a decimated service. These are not easy questions with no easy answers. To suggest otherwise from behind a computer is cowardly and ignorant.

If you really think so why dont you contact the FBU and tell them. Better still pop into your local fire station and explain your point of view to them, Im sure they are waiting to explain why you are wrong. I wont be holding breath.

 

[beorhthelm]

Their job and rightly so is to win as much for their members as possible by losing them as little pay as possible. If you can do that whilst winning public support even better. [...]

As a public sector worker and union activist myself, you never want to take strike action. However sometimes you have to go for the smaller pain of a strike to avoid the bigger pain of a decimated service.

but it is not about pay nor is the service to be "decimated", and union's purpose is not to gain public support for their cause. think you've shown through the typical union world view of everything.

 

[bhaexpress]

I would rather here a genuine fireperson's opinion before making any judgements. I have a lot more time for them than I would for tube drivers. What gets me is that if they do go on strike on November 5th will it stop anybody lighting fireworks ? I doubt it. However, given that this could lead to more fires ? Quire possibly but just where will insurance companies stand on this ? Won't want their profits hurt will they ?

 

[The Spanish]

.... yet the job has always been massively oversubscribed hasn't it? Or is that just an urban myth?

no its not an urban myth. they are stories about crocodiles in new york sewers. I think you mean something else.

the rest of your post is too depressing for words.

 

[bhaexpress]

I've never fancied working shifts of any description ... not 8am to 8pm, not 6pm to 9am, not any of them?
.... so I've never applied for any job with shifts.

I've never fancied walking into burning buildings or getting shot or dealing with drunks with knives?
.... so I've never applied for any job with built in danger.

When did press-ganging start for the Fire Service?

Every firefighter applies for the post with their eyes wide open surely?
Do they honestly not know what they're letting themselves in for when they apply?

.... yet the job has always been massively oversubscribed hasn't it? Or is that just an urban myth?

I'm not going to knock any firefighter .... I think they're prepared to do something that I'm not .... I respect them for that, but please stop pleading firefighters as a special case?
They choose to do it, nobody makes them .... and they all know there are a lot of other people out there ready to take their place given half a chance?

Why are we therefore given the holier than thou attitude by their supporters?
Yes they go into burning buildings, yes they pick up body parts from horrendous accidents, yes they do all manner of horrible things that I don't want to do ..... but it's the job they chose to do?

NOBODY MAKES THEM DO IT!

Striking on Bonfire Night cannot be justified in any way or form in my opinion?
Why not strike on November 6th ... or 7th ... or 8th ......... ?

Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with an earlier poster who feels that there won't actually be a strike on the 5th, and it's just a cynical ploy of the Union to draw attention to the dispute ... but they may have miscalculated?
There was an overwhelming majority of ill-feeling towards firefighters amongst the people I heard discussing the issue today, and it was totally down to the timing of the threatened strike?

Nobody makes them do it I agree. However, would you do their job ? I know I wouldn't. There tends to be an up and a down side to every job but firemen (and the Police I might add) do what is a far more dangerous job than most. They also get to remove bits of people from fires, car accidents, train track accidents and the like. Somebody has to do it but I am so glad it's not me.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I've never fancied working shifts of any description ... not 8am to 8pm, not 6pm to 9am, not any of them?
.... so I've never applied for any job with shifts.

I've never fancied walking into burning buildings or getting shot or dealing with drunks with knives?
.... so I've never applied for any job with built in danger.

So let's be grateful that people are willing to do these jobs.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Fire brigade 'discriminating against white men' - Telegraph

I've seen loads of black faces in the fire brigade.

Maybe it's the soot?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

They will not strike on 5th Nov.

This will be the case. But, I do like a good strike.

 

[Questions]

Many tears ago we refurbished quite a few of the fire stations around the Bognor and Chichester area. We had some problems with the kitchen suppliers on a job with a late delivery so there was no hot food for a couple of days.
Jesus Christ you would have thought the world was going to end. We had to go out (on instruction from the surveyor we were working for) and get them take aways to stop them crying there eyes out. I have never met such a bunch of whingers.
They should have brought a proper lunchbox like real men....... hot food pah.

 

[bhaexpress]

Many tears ago we refurbished quite a few of the fire stations around the Bognor and Chichester area. We had some problems with the kitchen suppliers on a job with a late delivery so there was no hot food for a couple of days.
Jesus Christ you would have thought the world was going to end. We had to go out (on instruction from the surveyor we were working for) and get them take aways to stop them crying there eyes out. I have never met such a bunch of whingers.
They should have brought a proper lunchbox like real men....... hot food pah.

Mate try working in a civil service department for a day or two, then you'll know the meaning of whinging.

 

[Manny]

Exactly the hours I do in the haematology lab. It changed to meet the demands of the service we provide.

It's surely easier to do 4 12 hour shifts than a couple of 'normal' ones followed by a couple of beasts. If that's why they're striking, it's pathetic.

Do you work in central London?

That is the issue here, the vast majority of London Firefighters commute from places like Sussex. They are being told to do a 12 hour day shift, on top of their commute. That is 2 days a week they dont get to see their kids etc. whereas they could before

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Do you work in central London?

That is the issue here, the vast majority of London Firefighters commute from places like Sussex. They are being told to do a 12 hour day shift, on top of their commute. That is 2 days a week they dont get to see their kids etc. whereas they could before

This is a good point. A lot of 'key' London workers simply cannot afford to live close to work on the wages they get.

 

[Manny]

I've never fancied working shifts of any description ... not 8am to 8pm, not 6pm to 9am, not any of them?
.... so I've never applied for any job with shifts.

I've never fancied walking into burning buildings or getting shot or dealing with drunks with knives?
.... so I've never applied for any job with built in danger.

When did press-ganging start for the Fire Service?

Every firefighter applies for the post with their eyes wide open surely?
Do they honestly not know what they're letting themselves in for when they apply?

.... yet the job has always been massively oversubscribed hasn't it? Or is that just an urban myth?

I'm not going to knock any firefighter .... I think they're prepared to do something that I'm not .... I respect them for that, but please stop pleading firefighters as a special case?
They choose to do it, nobody makes them .... and they all know there are a lot of other people out there ready to take their place given half a chance?

Why are we therefore given the holier than thou attitude by their supporters?
Yes they go into burning buildings, yes they pick up body parts from horrendous accidents, yes they do all manner of horrible things that I don't want to do ..... but it's the job they chose to do?

NOBODY MAKES THEM DO IT!

Striking on Bonfire Night cannot be justified in any way or form in my opinion?
Why not strike on November 6th ... or 7th ... or 8th ......... ?

Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with an earlier poster who feels that there won't actually be a strike on the 5th, and it's just a cynical ploy of the Union to draw attention to the dispute ... but they may have miscalculated?
There was an overwhelming majority of ill-feeling towards firefighters amongst the people I heard discussing the issue today, and it was totally down to the timing of the threatened strike?

You are absolutely right! we are not forced into it. We do go into it with our eyes wide open but this dispute is not about trying to change anything we subscribed to when we joined up. Its about opposing changes being imposed on us that will seriously affect our home lives. As i said earlier, thats 2 days a week that London Firefighters wont get to see their kids.... Thats not what they went into with their eyes wide open.

I am a Firefighter in West Sussex. And these changes would not adversely change my life, i only live 5 mins from work. The London guys, however, have the commute on top of this.

And lets make no mistake! A change in shift timings has no effect on Fire cover whatsoever! a full time station is crewed 24/7. It matters not one jot when shift changes occur!


To some degree it is an urban myth that applicants for Firefighters is oversubscribed. Whilst it is true that for every vacancy there are many applicants, this doesnt garuntee the quality of the applicants. By the time you weed out those not fit enough, not strong enough, those not willing to listen to orders, those with no aptitude, those with claustrophobia, fear of heights etc, etc. You actually end up with a very short shortlist.

 

[The Spanish]

That is the issue here, the vast majority of London Firefighters commute from places like Sussex.

Bit of a bold claim.......! Not in my experience most I know are all pretty much local. Not a statement to prove indisputedly you are wrong, but you have set the bar for wild unsubstantiated speculation pretty high so I am comfortable with it.

 

[The Spanish]

You are absolutely right! we are not forced into it. We do go into it with our eyes wide open but this dispute is not about trying to change anything we subscribed to when we joined up. Its about opposing changes being imposed on us that will seriously affect our home lives. As i said earlier, thats 2 days a week that London Firefighters wont get to see their kids.... Thats not what they went into with their eyes wide open.

I am a Firefighter in West Sussex. And these changes would not adversely change my life, i only live 5 mins from work. The London guys, however, have the commute on top of this.

And lets make no mistake! A change in shift timings has no effect on Fire cover whatsoever! a full time station is crewed 24/7. It matters not one jot when shift changes occur!


To some degree it is an urban myth that applicants for Firefighters is oversubscribed. Whilst it is true that for every vacancy there are many applicants, this doesnt garuntee the quality of the applicants. By the time you weed out those not fit enough, not strong enough, those not willing to listen to orders, those with no aptitude, those with claustrophobia, fear of heights etc, etc. You actually end up with a very short shortlist.

I thought West Sussex was all part time?

 

[Manny]

I thought West Sussex was all part time?

Nope, Crawley, Horley, Horsham, Chichester, Worthing and Bognor are Full time

Shoreham, East Grinstead and Haywards Heath are day crewed.