[Football] Liverpool and Manchester United lead ‘European League’ breakout league idea

[hoof hearted]

Firstly, I wouldn't suggest that the PL kick them out right now. I wouldn't impose any points penalty, or any fine. I'd simply state that if they form this new league, then they will be kicked out. Their choice. Secondly, I don't imagine the PL have any legal grounds to deduct points or kick them out for simply proposing an idea.

I don't think protest will matter to the owners, they're (mostly) not even in this country. But if they're kicked out of the PL, their revenue will drop hugely, and there's the risk that their new league will fail when it's just them (and no other teams from Europe joining them each year). That's probably too much of a risk for their owners to take.

It's more than just a proposal at this point. The clubs have signed a contract and announced a start date.

I'd like to see the EPL kick the 6 clubs out the league, but I really doubt it would happen.

For one, a club like Man City have the best lawyers in the world and would sue the hell out of the EPL forever, it's not a legal fight the EPL want (just how UEFA didn't want a legal battle when City were threatened with punishment for breaking FFP).

And if the 'big' 6 leave the EPL, it would ultimately hurt the EPL financially - and money is the only reason the EPL exists.

And thirdly, without the big 6, the money from broadcasting rights could shrink massively and have a knockout effect for all other clubs in the EPL causing some to struggle to pay their wage bill.

 

[Jim in the West]

It's more than just a proposal at this point. The clubs have signed a contract and announced a start date.

I'd like to see the EPL kick the 6 clubs out the league, but I really doubt it would happen.

For one, a club like Man City have the best lawyers in the world and would sue the hell out of the EPL forever, it's not a legal fight the EPL want (just how UEFA didn't want a legal battle when City were threatened with punishment for breaking FFP).

And if the 'big' 6 leave the EPL, it would ultimately hurt the EPL financially - and money is the only reason the EPL exists.

And thirdly, without the big 6, the money from broadcasting rights could shrink massively and have a knockout effect for all other clubs in the EPL causing some to struggle to pay their wage bill.

All possibly true - but if the ESL starts, then the Champions League is dead....which means there is no real point in doing anything other than finish top of the EPL (no European places to play for). And the "Big Six" won't really worry where they finish in the Premier League (as long as they don't get relegated), as they are in the ESL anyway. So loads of EPL matches just become irrelevant. As has been noted elsewhere, the Big Six will start to put out reserve teams for Premier League games. The EPL as a competition would be massively, massively diminished.

So - I don't think the EPL (or UEFA) have got any alternative but to fight this, and do all they can - including bans, etc - to stop this happening. The implications of an EPL with the Big Six in it are worse than the downside of getting rid of them.

 

[albionalex]

Not just today but other post previously you want to go on and on.

I'm certainly not dumb and I ****ing know where the money comes from. It comes from advertising and if no one watches the advertising goes.

You maybe dumbarse enough to watch this crap. Fair play if you're that shallow

Guess that makes two of us then.

Let's do some simple maths;

UK population; 66.65 million

China population; 1.398 billion
USA population; 328.2 million
Saudi Arabia population; 34.27 million
India population 1.366 billion

Gee, I wonder where the TV deals will get more advertising revenue from...

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

All possibly true - but if the ESL starts, then the Champions League is dead....which means there is no real point in doing anything other than finish top of the EPL (no European places to play for). And the "Big Six" won't really worry where they finish in the Premier League (as long as they don't get relegated), as they are in the ESL anyway. So loads of EPL matches just become irrelevant. As has been noted elsewhere, the Big Six will start to put out reserve teams for Premier League games. The EPL as a competition would be massively, massively diminished.

So - I don't think the EPL (or UEFA) have got any alternative but to fight this, and do all they can - including bans, etc - to stop this happening. The implications of an EPL with the Big Six in it are worse than the downside of getting rid of them.

That’s a very good summary. The only option open to the PL is to expel the 6 and promote 6 clubs who will be prepared to compete. I’ve never previously been in favour of inviting the Old Firm into our league but now might be a good time to merge English and Scottish football. Anything to outflank foreign billionaires and tourist clubs.

 

[Driver8]

All possibly true - but if the ESL starts, then the Champions League is dead....which means there is no real point in doing anything other than finish top of the EPL (no European places to play for). And the "Big Six" won't really worry where they finish in the Premier League (as long as they don't get relegated), as they are in the ESL anyway. So loads of EPL matches just become irrelevant. As has been noted elsewhere, the Big Six will start to put out reserve teams for Premier League games. The EPL as a competition would be massively, massively diminished.

So - I don't think the EPL (or UEFA) have got any alternative but to fight this, and do all they can - including bans, etc - to stop this happening. The implications of an EPL with the Big Six in it are worse than the downside of getting rid of them.

Both the Premier League and subsequent “non super league” European competitions would be much more exciting for real fans without the same old teams winning them. The plastics can have their pathetic super league to **** over whilst the rest of us get on with the proper stuff.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Therein lies the rub for me. There's actually an inverse correlation between the proximity and engagement level between fans and clubs and how much influence they have over matters. 50 years ago (even 30 years ago) match-going fans were everything because that's where all the money came from - clubs could not act unilaterally against the best interests and wishes of supporters without risking serious financial consequences.

Today things are very different in the top flight. The last 12 months are a great case study in how little fans in grounds matter in the big scheme of things. Yes, empty stadiums detract from the spectacle but behind closed doors games have proved to be nothing more than a bloody nose to the financial might of elite clubs - it remains silly season in terms of transfer fees and wages.

The simple reality is that the bulk of football's money comes from people sat at home, and even more pertinently people based outside of this country, often many thousands of miles away. It sounds counter-intuitive, but fans on the other side of the world literally have more influence than people buying season tickets and going to games because in totality they account for more income. It stands to reason that those 'fans' are going to be less invested in English football's history and cultural heritage - no doubt for many of those people week after week of Liverpool v Barcelona is going to be of greater interest than a season littered with Burnley's and Norwich City's. It's this reality that makes this whole shambolic affair possible.

What the Premier League has done is created a monster it can no longer control - the robots are taking over. They've allowed the likes of Manchester United and Liverpool to become so big globally, that they no longer need the Premier League. They no longer need match-going fans, or even football fans based in England, to be frank.

The Premeir League model since its advent in the early 90s has been motivated by financial greed, and has only become progressively worse over the years. By becoming so blinkered by maximising their own financial wealth, they've failed to see this coming and have got themselves in a right old pickle. Like it or not, the magic money tree is dead without those clubs with a disproportionate global profile - millions of people in the far east are not going to be tuning in to a season of Everton v Newcastle.

Quite the pickle indeed. How they get out of it, I don't know. Can they? I'm not sure, but I am certain that this will all end very badly for someone.

I agree with much of that but it is not true that it remains silly season. In the last transfer window £70 million was spent compared to £230 million a year before.

 

[hoof hearted]

All possibly true - but if the ESL starts, then the Champions League is dead....which means there is no real point in doing anything other than finish top of the EPL (no European places to play for). And the "Big Six" won't really worry where they finish in the Premier League (as long as they don't get relegated), as they are in the ESL anyway. So loads of EPL matches just become irrelevant. As has been noted elsewhere, the Big Six will start to put out reserve teams for Premier League games. The EPL as a competition would be massively, massively diminished.

So - I don't think the EPL (or UEFA) have got any alternative but to fight this, and do all they can - including bans, etc - to stop this happening. The implications of an EPL with the Big Six in it are worse than the downside of getting rid of them.

I'm not sure why the 6 teams would put out a reserve team in the EPL. That doesn't make any sense to me. It's not like the money from the ESL will completely replace the money from the EPL. If they put out reserve teams then fewer people would watch it and therefore the broadcasting money will go down. ESL is a replacement for the Champions League, the EPL will still carry on the same, but of course as you say without these 6 clubs caring about European qualification (that will replaced by other teams getting a chance Champions League football though, which will generate more money for those clubs).

It's still a terrible idea and completely against the spirit of the game. But I can see it going ahead. It will just come down to the legal battle between UEFA and the owners of these clubs and the latter has an almost unlimited amount of money to throw at lawyers.

 

[Springal]

Why would he build a 30k stadium that wouldn't be full?

Did 30,000 crowds only come to football since the PL? Don't be daft, there are Championship clubs that have managed 30,000+ capacities.

It'd be a blip to suggest Brighton would lose rafts of supporters from the ground without the 'big 6' is silly

 

[Farehamseagull]

You clearly cannot comprehend, so I will say it plain and simple;

The people behind this Super League do not care about you. They do not care about their own clubs fans. They only care about money. And Liverpool vs Juventus will get them more money than Liverpool vs Brighton.

Spot on.

The supporter trusts of these and other clubs can stomp their feet as much as they want, it will make absolutely no difference to these people whatsoever. They just don’t care.

They knew it would get this reaction and they’ve done it anyway as they really don’t care and it makes no difference to their project or product.

 

[albionalex]

I'm not sure why the 6 teams would put out a reserve team in the EPL. That doesn't make any sense to me. It's not like the money from the ESL will completely replace the money from the EPL. If they put out reserve teams then fewer people would watch it and therefore the broadcasting money will go down. ESL is a replacement for the Champions League, the EPL will still carry on the same, but of course as you say without these 6 clubs caring about European qualification (that will replaced by other teams getting a chance Champions League football though, which will generate more money for those clubs).

It's still a terrible idea and completely against the spirit of the game. But I can see it going ahead. It will just come down to the legal battle between UEFA and the owners of these clubs and the latter has almost endless pockets of money to throw at lawyers.

This season, Chelsea cannot win the league but they are fighting to finish in the Top 4, so they can qualify for the Champions League. So they play their strongest team each week.

Under the new proposal, they do not need to finish in the Top 4 to play in the ESL.

If they have a game vs Burnley on a Saturday and a game vs Real Madrid on the Wednesday, why would they play their top players against Burnley when a win means nothing?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

On the surface that sounds true and reasonable. However long-term I don't believe it will lead to more money as it stultifies competition and football has flourished with the understanding that within reason, anyone can achieve. This league removes that from the top down and harms all along the way in my opinion. I think that fans will find Juve vs Liverpool boring year after year, especially 4 times a season. The champions league was getting very boring to a large number of football fans and this league will be meaningless.

Listening to the radio and an American this afternoon, one thing that rang true was the phenomenon of lack of jeopardy (due to no relegation) in the US sports arena. This transmits to the TV fans who dip in and out of games because the games don't really matter if you are not in the top two. Also, teams with no chance of getting to the playoffs deliberately lose so they will finish low in the league and get first pick on the next season's draft. Can you imagine the Albion ****ing about so we can finish bottom and get first dibs on Rhian Brewster etc., next season? **** that. This tomfoolery must lower the advertising tariff, so whereas they make loads of money they could make loads more with a decent product. Sadly a small group of owners prefer the status quo because even the pot may be smaller, they get all of it, forever. I need jeopardy and I need it forever!

 

[KZNSeagull]

I'm not sure why the 6 teams would put out a reserve team in the EPL. That doesn't make any sense to me. It's not like the money from the ESL will completely replace the money from the EPL. If they put out reserve teams then fewer people would watch it and therefore the broadcasting money will go down. ESL is a replacement for the Champions League, the EPL will still carry on the same, but of course as you say without these 6 clubs caring about European qualification (that will replaced by other teams getting a chance Champions League football though, which will generate more money for those clubs).

It's still a terrible idea and completely against the spirit of the game. But I can see it going ahead. It will just come down to the legal battle between UEFA and the owners of these clubs and the latter has an almost unlimited amount of money to throw at lawyers.

Because a director from one of these clubs has already said as much. The owners want their prize assets playing less football not more and are secretly delighted that their players will be banned from playing in anything else.

 

[Jim in the West]

I'm not sure why the 6 teams would put out a reserve team in the EPL. That doesn't make any sense to me. It's not like the money from the ESL will completely replace the money from the EPL. If they put out reserve teams then fewer people would watch it and therefore the broadcasting money will go down. ESL is a replacement for the Champions League, the EPL will still carry on the same, but of course as you say without these 6 clubs caring about European qualification (that will replaced by other teams getting a chance Champions League football though, which will generate more money for those clubs).

It's still a terrible idea and completely against the spirit of the game. But I can see it going ahead. It will just come down to the legal battle between UEFA and the owners of these clubs and the latter has an almost unlimited amount of money to throw at lawyers.

They'd put out a reserve team (a) to keep their first team fresh for the midweek ESL games, and (b) because they won't really care that much where they finish - it won't matter, as they are GUARANTEED a place in the ESL, which will be the cash-cow. I'm sure their reserve teams will be good, but pretty much EVERY Premier League game in which an ESL club appears will be questioned - are they trying? Why have they picked the third choice keeper? And imagine the moaning about kick-off times!!

 

[hoof hearted]

This season, Chelsea cannot win the league but they are fighting to finish in the Top 4, so they can qualify for the Champions League. So they play their strongest team each week.

Under the new proposal, they do not need to finish in the Top 4 to play in the ESL.

If they have a game vs Burnley on a Saturday and a game vs Real Madrid on the Wednesday, why would they play their top players against Burnley when a win means nothing?

Yeh that's a fair point. EPL need to introduce a rule then to try and prevent that, i.e force clubs to play a certain number of first team players or they will be fined or deducated points for repeated breaking of the rule.

 

[Yoda]

Because a director from one of these clubs has already said as much. The owners want their prize assets playing less football not more and are secretly delighted that their players will be banned from playing in anything else.

Yes, can you imagine basically Liverpool U23's v Tottenham U23's in the Premier League because they have a big ESL game that week? Degrades the Premier League value completely.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This season, Chelsea cannot win the league but they are fighting to finish in the Top 4, so they can qualify for the Champions League. So they play their strongest team each week.

Under the new proposal, they do not need to finish in the Top 4 to play in the ESL.

If they have a game vs Burnley on a Saturday and a game vs Real Madrid on the Wednesday, why would they play their top players against Burnley when a win means nothing?

It depends where their main source of income lies. Presently they are already playing weakened sides against the lesser sides. I seem to recall ManUre 'rested' some against us.

Not sure what this has got to do with anything, though. From where I'm standing this looks like it hasn't a gnat's cock in a blender's chance of happening.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Yes, can you imagine basically Liverpool U23's v Tottenham U23's in the Premier League because they have a big ESL game that week? Degrades the Premier League value completely.

Absolutely, so if they are going ahead with this they must be removed from the PL. If they want to continue playing domestic football, they can start again by playing their reserves of the reserves in district league 23 or whatever.

 

[banjo]

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Excellent from Carracher and Neville on MNF.
Jurgen Klopp also coming out against it. Says he was not part of the negotiations

 

[Triggaaar]

It's more than just a proposal at this point. The clubs have signed a contract and announced a start date.

They haven't agreed what clubs will be in the league yet, or many of the other points. The PL rules state they can't play in other leagues (not listed). I'm not sure it says they can't plan to. If the clubs have broken existing rules, then it would be nice to see them penalised, but I'm not sure they have.

I'd like to see the EPL kick the 6 clubs out the league, but I really doubt it would happen.

Have you got a link to any PL rule that states they can do that?

For one, a club like Man City have the best lawyers in the world and would sue the hell out of the EPL forever

The PL can afford to defend themselves. It's not that difficult if they're in the right.

, it's not a legal fight the EPL want (just how UEFA didn't want a legal battle when City were threatened with punishment for breaking FFP).

To be fair to Man City, I expect they were in the right. While I expect they broke FFP rules, I suspect many other clubs did too, so it seems unfair to only punish city.

And if the 'big' 6 leave the EPL, it would ultimately hurt the EPL financially - and money is the only reason the EPL exists.

If they're allowed to play this competition with no need to qualify, that will massively hurt the EPL financially. Probably more so long term than if the EPL let them leave altogether. And if the clubs had no choice to remain as they are, or leave, I very much doubt they'd leave.

And thirdly, without the big 6, the money from broadcasting rights could shrink massively and have a knockout effect for all other clubs in the EPL causing some to struggle to pay their wage bill.

Players would simply get paid less, and in time other clubs would become the big clubs that people around the world want to watch.