[News] George Floyd trial

[Weststander]

Actually, I don't think we have reached full agreement, no. Aside from the fact we're both hoping for a conviction on this particular case.

You appear to be painting quite a rosy picture of the situation here. Whilst I agree it doesn't equal the USA in terms of an arms race, it seems to me that we still have a long way to go on many issues too.

That’s why I said kind of.

Late on a Friday evening, I don’t want to keep posting about the UK police on a thread called George Floyd trial.

I rate our police highly, in my life they’ve been a huge help to me on many occasions, also to my neighbours and I’ve reciprocated that by helping the police. At both Withdean and Amex WSU I had the good fortune to sit next to police, including senior officers investigating cold case rapes going back decades. Another was a retired bobby, my kids school tutor was an ex-bobby who had to leave Sussex Police after he was badly beaten up.

No apologies, I rate our police.

Whilst I condemn any policeman who is racist or a killer. Who doesn’t?

Now ..... George Floyd trial.

 

[1066familyman]

Well, that's your assertion. It's up to you to back it up. I understand that BAME people are proportionately over-represented in our prison population. They are there because they have committed criminal acts. There are socio-economic reasons for this (which are gradually changing as more BAME people fill senior positions and move socially and economiclly upwards; it is gradual - perhaps it should be happening faster, but that's not the debate here) so it is much more progressive and productive to look at the socio-econimic reasons and ways to move on rather than just putting it down to racism.
Yes, there is still racism out there, and it's disgusting - but calling out racism when it [I[isn't[/I] the issue doesn't help anybody.

In terms of backing it up, See my link above.

Intersectionality theory goes with the rest of what you're saying. Unfortunately we are a society that still has an ever increasing gap between rich and poor, not a narrowing one. This cannot help matters, surely?

 

[1066familyman]

That’s why I said kind of.

Late on a Friday evening, I don’t want to keep posting about the UK police on a thread called George Floyd trial.

I rate our police highly, in my life they’ve been a huge help to me on many occasions, also to my neighbours and I’ve reciprocated that by helping the police. At both Withdean and Amex WSU I had the good fortune to sit next to police, including senior officers investigating cold case rapes going back decades. Another was a retired bobby, my kids school tutor was an ex-bobby who had to leave Sussex Police after he was badly beaten up.

No apologies, I rate our police.

Whilst I condemn any policeman who is racist or a killer. Who doesn’t?

Now ..... George Floyd trial.

I except that your lived experience gives you a favourable impression of our police. That's nice.

It's not the same for everyone.

But you're right, it's late on a Friday night and this debate is hijacking a specific thread, which isn't perhaps fair. So I'll bow out too.

 

[sydney]

Two things.

1. Agree with you 100% about racism, I’m worried about Chauvin getting off.

Also that online racism in the UK has exploded.

I don’t do Twatter or Facebook. Why do folk like us do it, when it only makes one unhappy, sad, reading the haters?

2. Sorry, I simply don’t agree with thugs in the UK attacking the police, bystanders, businesses, peoples livelihoods. If white, dreadlocked thugs, police haters because they’re criminals, use this as a springboard to attack our police, then they’re scum of the earth. (Two of the recent Bristol rioters, now on very serious charges, fit that description, it’s online. One travelled 100 miles to fire bomb the police).

The recent report imho got it wrong about institutional racism. But it’s just a report. This is not the end of the road. Stephen Lawrence’s brother (condemns the report btw), says that the UK has come a long way in tackling racism over 25 years, other blacks say just too. For example individual police detectives were corrupt mates of the 6 thugs families. Still much work to do.

Police and/or UK government haters hoping that the UK has riots if Chauvin is found innocent, need to give their heads a wobble.

a lot of on line hate is pedalled by thick as shit 15 year olds from the comfort of their bedrooms.

 

[NooBHA]

Well, that's your assertion. It's up to you to back it up. I understand that BAME people are proportionately over-represented in our prison population. They are there because they have committed criminal acts. There are socio-economic reasons for this (which are gradually changing as more BAME people fill senior positions and move socially and economiclly upwards; it is gradual - perhaps it should be happening faster, but that's not the debate here) so it is much more progressive and productive to look at the socio-econimic reasons and ways to move on rather than just putting it down to racism.
Yes, there is still racism out there, and it's disgusting - but calling out racism when it [I[isn't[/I] the issue doesn't help anybody.

Your summary is too simplistic in relation to why non whites disproportionately fill prisons here in the UK and in the US.

One of the often overlooked reasons is. That you can be fairly convicted of a crime but disproportionately and unfairly sentenced. This happens all the time to to non white defendants which keeps them in prisons longer. Often for minor drug possession charges.

There's many other reasons too for such statistics but that is a major factor

 

[sydney]

Your summary is too simplistic in relation to why non whites disproportionately fill prisons here in the UK and in the US.

One of the often overlooked reasons is. That you can be fairly convicted of a crime but disproportionately and unfairly sentenced. This happens all the time to to non white defendants which keeps them in prisons longer. Often for minor drug possession charges.

There's many other reasons too for such statistics but that is a major factor

you are referring to America here i'm assuming ........they have the 3 strike thing happening whereas if you get done for 3 misdemeanours you do boob for a long time as in like 3-5 yrs , this could be for littering or farting in a cinema....!!

 

[NooBHA]

you are referring to America here i'm assuming ........they have the 3 strike thing happening whereas if you get done for 3 misdemeanours you do boob for a long time as in like 3-5 yrs , this could be for littering or farting in a cinema....!!

Yes for the most part but in the UK black defendants are statistically more likely to receive harsher sentences as well.

 

[GT49er]

Yes for the most part but in the UK black defendants are statistically more likely to receive harsher sentences as well.

As I said in my reply to the first OP, I would be interested to see those statistics - from a credible source, of course.

The fact is that in this country sentencing is governed by very detailed guidelines, taking into account the seriousness of the crime, the affect on the victim, previous offences, TICs, etc. Nothing about ethnicity though. Magistrates' performance, as in any other jobs, is reviewed; failure to sentence within the guidelines will result in negative reports, possibly re-training and ultimately departure from the job if performance remains unsatisfactory.
Furthermore, in 2021 the percentage of magistrates who are BAME is now the same as in the general population. It is also a fact that well over half of all magistrates are women - so the image of all magistrates as vindictive racist white men hell-bent on banging up as many black people as possible for as long as possible is, I'm afraid, nothing more than an urban myth.

Yes, we all know there are still racists in Britain - nobody except a stupid fool would try to deny that, so there is still work to be done - but there is one hell of a lot less racism than there was when us (almost) baby boomers starting protesting against racism in the 60s and 70s. We've made progress; sure, there is still much more progress to be made, but it won't be made by the proliferation of urban myths and fake news on social media. It is also true that there are (very occasionally) miscarriages of justice - but, if you are black and in prison in the UK, the chances are very high that a). you committed the offence for which you were convicted and b). that your sentence is commiserate with the guidelines set for anyone, of whatever ethnicity, who was convicted of the same crime(s) as you.

 

[Sheebo]

Sadly he's going to get away with it one way or another. Imagine if a Black police officer had killed a white suspect in this way then imagine the legal consequences, would the Black policeman have just been sacked ? The racism in this case is pretty damned obvious and unless there is a major sea change in US societal racism then all that is left is rioting and insurrection until things change. UK society is a microcosm and echo chamber for what happens in the US. Yes, you can say that rioting and mob violence is wrong but if things do not change then what options are left as a way for people to protest ?

The current governments recent " Report " in to racism was a report by numbers that simply does not address the issues in any way. You only have to see the Twitter feeds of BAME footballers if their team has lost to see this, almost every post from Dianne Abbott is followed by a tide of racist vitriol, eventually very bad things are going to happen.

It’s not though is it? Everyone has assumed something purely down to the skin colour of the victim and the alleged perpetrator. There’s actually zero evidence of racism - if anything, those that have assumed it was racist have shown the most racism so far... My opinion, sure you won’t agree. But I said it at the time, that it was weird everyone viewed it automatically as racist when there was no evidence (and still isn’t) that it was racially motivated. I personally expect it played a part - but I like to deal in facts, not guesses or assumptions...

Not a bad thing it was the catalyst for the BLM stuff but a little bemusing to me.

Obviously I hope for the obvious outcome on this trial as the video is sickening.

 

[Weststander]

It’s not though is it? Everyone has assumed something purely down to the skin colour of the victim and the alleged perpetrator. There’s actually zero evidence of racism - if anything, those that have assumed it was racist have shown the most racism so far... My opinion, sure you won’t agree. But I said it at the time, that it was weird everyone viewed it automatically as racist when there was no evidence (and still isn’t) that it was racially motivated. I personally expect it played a part - but I like to deal in facts, not guesses or assumptions...

Not a bad thing it was the catalyst for the BLM stuff but a little bemusing to me.

Obviously I hope for the obvious outcome on this trial as the video is sickening.

I think you’re correct, in that where’s the evidence that Chauvin the person is racist? He might be, who knows?

Instead, it’s the repeated shoot (or suffocate) first actions by white cops to black Americans when pulled over in recent years. On several occasions, if not all of them, the black person offered little to no threat justifying using fatal force. So I suppose, an inherent racism within many US police forces. Blacks seen as a threat and second class citizens.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

As I said in my reply to the first OP, I would be interested to see those statistics - from a credible source, of course.

The fact is that in this country sentencing is governed by very detailed guidelines, taking into account the seriousness of the crime, the affect on the victim, previous offences, TICs, etc. Nothing about ethnicity though. Magistrates' performance, as in any other jobs, is reviewed; failure to sentence within the guidelines will result in negative reports, possibly re-training and ultimately departure from the job if performance remains unsatisfactory.
Furthermore, in 2021 the percentage of magistrates who are BAME is now the same as in the general population. It is also a fact that well over half of all magistrates are women - so the image of all magistrates as vindictive racist white men hell-bent on banging up as many black people as possible for as long as possible is, I'm afraid, nothing more than an urban myth.

Yes, we all know there are still racists in Britain - nobody except a stupid fool would try to deny that, so there is still work to be done - but there is one hell of a lot less racism than there was when us (almost) baby boomers starting protesting against racism in the 60s and 70s. We've made progress; sure, there is still much more progress to be made, but it won't be made by the proliferation of urban myths and fake news on social media. It is also true that there are (very occasionally) miscarriages of justice - but, if you are black and in prison in the UK, the chances are very high that a). you committed the offence for which you were convicted and b). that your sentence is commiserate with the guidelines set for anyone, of whatever ethnicity, who was convicted of the same crime(s) as you.

Magistrates can only sentence up to six months. Quite often it is a district judge in magistrates courts, but even then, sentences are time limited.

Longer sentences are sent to Crown court, or more likely to be tried by jury in a Crown Court.

As for inherent racism, I’ve read several accounts where black QCs arriving at courts who have been directed as defendants, instead of counsel, by ushers.

 

[vegster]

It’s not though is it? Everyone has assumed something purely down to the skin colour of the victim and the alleged perpetrator. There’s actually zero evidence of racism - if anything, those that have assumed it was racist have shown the most racism so far... My opinion, sure you won’t agree. But I said it at the time, that it was weird everyone viewed it automatically as racist when there was no evidence (and still isn’t) that it was racially motivated. I personally expect it played a part - but I like to deal in facts, not guesses or assumptions...

Not a bad thing it was the catalyst for the BLM stuff but a little bemusing to me.

Obviously I hope for the obvious outcome on this trial as the video is sickening.

Just a thought, would a Black police officer have " restrained " a White minor felon by kneeling on his neck? A person who was not resisting while being watched by half a dozen other policemen? Would a Black policeman be allowed to slowly kill a " restrained " White man who was pleading that he could not breathe? Would the initial response to this death be to sack the officer and hope that the public forget what happened and file it under " One of those things that can happen? "

The evidence there is clearly the inherent racism that classes Black US citizens as second class citizens. The fact you can't see that and deny it exists proves the problem. And, after all this blows over, it will happen again and again in one form or another, either by overuse of physical force or firearms.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Just a thought, would a Black police officer have " restrained " a White minor felon by kneeling on his neck? A person who was not resisting while being watched by half a dozen other policemen? Would a Black policeman be allowed to slowly kill a " restrained " White man who was pleading that he could not breathe? Would the initial response to this death be to sack the officer and hope that the public forget what happened and file it under " One of those things that can happen? "

Who would know, they rarely report on white victims of police in the MSM.

I mean you didn't know that a white guy had died in very similar circumstances to Floyd did you? The media sure didn't report it the same.

The media picks and chooses what to report on to create a narrative.

 

[BadFish]

Who would know, they rarely report on white victims of police in the MSM.

I mean you didn't know that a white guy had died in very similar circumstances to Floyd did you? The media sure didn't report it the same.

The media picks and chooses what to report on to create a narrative.

Yep, the racism narrative is certainly created by the media.

racism against African Americans is definitely a media construct.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Yep, the racism narrative is certainly created by the media.

racism against African Americans is definitely a media construct.

People are pushing Floyd as a racially motivated incident when there's zero evidence it was racially motivated.

Even the BBC was pushing that bullshit angle.

So isn't that the definition of creating a false narrative?

 

[BadFish]

People are pushing Floyd as a racially motivated incident when there's zero evidence it was racially motivated.

Even the BBC was pushing that bullshit angle.

So isn't that the definition of creating a false narrative?

Only a fool would suggest that there is no racial narrative to what happened with George Floyd.

What I was laughing at though, is you suggesting that said narrative was created by the media.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Only a fool would suggest that there is no racial narrative to what happened with George Floyd.

What I was laughing at though, is you suggesting that said narrative was created by the media.

Or people who require actual evidence, only a fool presumes after all. Are you presuming or do you have definitive evidence it was based on his race and not on his criminal history for example?

Are you saying if there's no racial motivation and the media pushes that as the reason they aren't creating a narrative?

 

[BadFish]

Or people who require actual evidence, only a fool presumes after all. Are you presuming or do you have definitive evidence it was based on his race and not on his criminal history for example?

Are you saying if there's no racial motivation and the media pushes that as the reason they aren't creating a narrative?

I am suggesting you are spot on that 'the media' have created the racial narrative in the US that this event has nothing to do with.

Your argument is that compelling

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I am suggesting you are spot on that 'the media' have created the racial narrative in the US that this event has nothing to do with.

Your argument is that compelling

Now you can go back to scanning this thread for opportunities in which you can crowbar your agenda.

Comprehension skills not your strong point I see.

No wonder the Oz education system is so shit.

 

[BadFish]

Comprehension skills not your strong point I see.

No wonder the Oz education system is so shit.

Hey, you can't blame me TB!

You are surely, too old to have been in my class?