[News] George Floyd trial

[vegster]

Two things.

1. Agree with you 100% about racism, I’m worried about Chauvin getting off.

Also that online racism in the UK has exploded.

I don’t do Twatter or Facebook. Why do folk like us do it, when it only makes one unhappy, sad, reading the haters?

2. Sorry, I simply don’t agree with thugs in the UK attacking the police, bystanders, businesses, peoples livelihoods. If white, dreadlocked thugs, police haters because they’re criminals, use this as a springboard to attack our police, then they’re scum of the earth. (Two of the recent Bristol rioters, now on very serious charges, fit that description, it’s online. One travelled 100 miles to fire bomb the police).

The recent report imho got it wrong about institutional racism. But it’s just a report. This is not the end of the road. Stephen Lawrence’s brother (condemns the report btw), says that the UK has come a long way in tackling racism over 25 years, other blacks say just too. For example individual police detectives were corrupt mates of the 6 thugs families. Still much work to do.

Police and/or UK government haters hoping that the UK has riots if Chauvin is found innocent, need to give their heads a wobble.

There are always some professional " protestors " about, some people will readily attach themselves to any issue that gives them the opportunity to throw some rocks and petrol bombs about or attack the police, its not right but it happens. Far worse is to keep covering up the obvious racism and denying there is a problem, eventually you get violent protests when people genuinely feel their human rights are ignored on a permanent basis.

I think it was a Vietnamese protestor who said " It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees ".

 

[GT49er]

[MENTION=70]Easy 10[/MENTION] has followed the trial closely. Advises that only a unanimous verdict can convict Chauvin.

OK, fary nuff - didn't know that. But surely they would have to have a re-trial - they can't find him not guilty just because one juror out of 12 or 15 or whatever number it is refuses to convict a white man for killing a black man. Surely they can't?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I tend to agree with you.

Imho Chauvin is as guilty as hell, I hope he’s found guilty of murder. I am concerned though that a lone juror might be blind or dim to huge weight of evidence.

Either way, why should this lead to rioting in the UK? Rioting is not something anyone from their UK armchair should get rather excited about .... businesses get destroyed, livelihoods destroyed, people are hurt. Croydon 2011 shows this. Who exactly gained from that. No one.

Exactly this , a classic case of virtue signalling
Regards
DF

 

[Weststander]

There are always some professional " protestors " about, some people will readily attach themselves to any issue that gives them the opportunity to throw some rocks and petrol bombs about or attack the police, its not right but it happens. Far worse is to keep covering up the obvious racism and denying there is a problem, eventually you get violent protests when people genuinely feel their human rights are ignored on a permanent basis.

I think it was a Vietnamese protestor who said " It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees ".

At the Sarah Everard vigil, the genuine attendees were chanting “Not in our space” to the male rent a thugs (black and white) who turned up en masse.

These thugs hate a lot of things and a lot of people, they hate. I rate them as lowly as far right scummers who also want to hurt people. Cut of the same violent cloth, I don’t give a toss if they claim they have a cause.

Racism is not ‘far worse” than people trying to hurt or maim the police.

Both reprehensible.

 

[Weststander]

OK, fary nuff - didn't know that. But surely they would have to have a re-trial - they can't find him not guilty just because one juror out of 12 or 15 or whatever number it is refuses to convict a white man for killing a black man. Surely they can't?

Fingers crossed there’s no miscarriage the first time. So much evidence against Chauvin from the incident itself, to experts on policing from the US and Minneapolis itself.

 

[vegster]

At the Sarah Everard vigil, the genuine attendees were chanting “Not in our space” to the male rent a thugs (black and white) who turned up en masse.

These thugs hate a lot of things and a lot of people, they hate. I rate them as lowly as far right scummers who also want to hurt people. Cut of the same violent cloth, I don’t give a toss if they claim they have a cause.

Racism is not ‘far worse” than people trying to hurt or maim the police.

Both reprehensible.

And now we are back to the Derek Chauvin trial where is seems that it's ok to hurt/maim/even kill someone who is black even though they are not a threat ( and heavily outnumbered !) to a group of heavily armed well trained policemen. By all means support the police but when the police are shown to be utterly racist then with nowhere else for minorities to demonstrate their anger..... you get riots ! you can't keep treating some parts of society as second class citizens as sooner or later it will kick off.

 

[Weststander]

And now we are back to the Derek Chauvin trial where is seems that it's ok to hurt/maim/even kill someone who is black even though they are not a threat ( and heavily outnumbered !) to a group of heavily armed well trained policemen. By all means support the police but when the police are shown to be utterly racist then with nowhere else for minorities to demonstrate their anger..... you get riots ! you can't keep treating some parts of society as second class citizens as sooner or later it will kick off.

Breaking this down, rather than a conflating of issues and nations.

Imho:

1. I condemn Floyd’s undoubted murder as much as you do.
2. US police contain many racist officers, Floyd is one of many murdered by those racist officers.

We’re entirely on the same page, you’re imagining a difference opinion that doesn’t exist.

3. The UK police are not murderers of black people. Please give me evidence to the contrary.
4. What gives UK criminals, whether they be black or white, the right to attack UK police?
5. What gives UK criminals, whether they be black or white, the right to attack UK police, if Chauvin gets away with it?

I know you like Starmer. He’s made his views on (4) perfectly clear in recent weeks, he condemns all violent rioters. He’s right.

 

[vegster]

Breaking this down, rather than a conflating of issues and nations.

Imho:

1. I condemn Floyd’s undoubted murder as much as you do.
2. US police contain many racist officers, Floyd is one of many murdered by those racist officers.

We’re entirely on the same page, you’re imagining a difference opinion that doesn’t exist.

3. The UK police are not murderers of black people. Please give me evidence to the contrary.
4. What gives UK criminals, whether they be black or white, the right to attack UK police?
5. What gives UK criminals, whether they be black or white, the right to attack UK police, if Chauvin gets away with it?

I know you like Starmer. He’s made his views on (4) perfectly clear in recent weeks, he condemns all violent rioters. He’s right.

On point 3, if I were you I would do some research, UK police are not necessarily murderers but there is a huge difference in numbers between white and black people who strangely die " in custody "

 

[Napper]

On point 3, if I were you I would do some research, UK police are not necessarily murderers but there is a huge difference in numbers between white and black people who strangely die " in custody "[/QUOTE


I’d be interested to see those figures and the numbers of arrests

 

[Weststander]

On point 3, if I were you I would do some research, UK police are not necessarily murderers but there is a huge difference in numbers between white and black people who strangely die " in custody "

Well they must be murderers or causing manslaughter through negligence then.

Sorry, I’d need to see real evidence for such a huge claim. Not twatter or far left propaganda.

No apologies from me, I really rate our police. Yes there are bad apples, but not killers on duty, a 100x better than the corrupt and institutionally racist police forces of decades not so long ago.

 

[Napper]

Well they must be murderers or causing manslaughter through negligence then.

Sorry, I’d need to see real evidence for such a huge claim. Not twatter or far left propaganda.

No apologies from me, I really rate our police. Yes there are bad apples, but not killers on duty, a 100x better than the corrupt and institutionally police forces of decades not so long ago.

Absolutely

People protesting against our police need to give their heads a wobble .

Soft as shit and not racist

Try other countries to see how good we have it

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

On point 3, if I were you I would do some research, UK police are not necessarily murderers but there is a huge difference in numbers between white and black people who strangely die " in custody "

Not in the UK.

What the police think is appropriate in the US is an entirely different matter. Conflation here, between UK and US, undermines the argument.

 

[Weststander]

Absolutely

People protesting against our police need to give their heads a wobble .

Soft as shit and not racist

Try other countries to see how good we have it

A near neighbour of ours is Parisian, very left wing (certainly no right wing, racist), lived here for 25 years.

She tells me about the extreme violence even now from the French security services against blacks and ethnic Arabs. In the 60’s trendy architects designed huge, futuristic municipal satellite suburbs on the edge of the major cities. They now house 6m immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Many jobless, ostracised by white France, physically and metaphorically. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/08/young-immigrants-french-suburbs-bear-brunt-police-violence/

French security forces have followed the US model of becoming ever more armed.

 

[1066familyman]

On point 3, if I were you I would do some research, UK police are not necessarily murderers but there is a huge difference in numbers between white and black people who strangely die " in custody "[/QUOTE


I’d be interested to see those figures and the numbers of arrests

Well they must be murderers or causing manslaughter through negligence then.

Sorry, I’d need to see real evidence for such a huge claim. Not twatter or far left propaganda.

No apologies from me, I really rate our police. Yes there are bad apples, but not killers on duty, a 100x better than the corrupt and institutionally police forces of decades not so long ago.

https://www.inquest.org.uk/iopc-stats-2020

There's a direct link in there as well to a...home office data on use of force...pdf that you can read, among other documents.

 

[GT49er]

On point 3, if I were you I would do some research, UK police are not necessarily murderers but there is a huge difference in numbers between white and black people who strangely die " in custody "

Well, that's your assertion. It's up to you to back it up. I understand that BAME people are proportionately over-represented in our prison population. They are there because they have committed criminal acts. There are socio-economic reasons for this (which are gradually changing as more BAME people fill senior positions and move socially and economiclly upwards; it is gradual - perhaps it should be happening faster, but that's not the debate here) so it is much more progressive and productive to look at the socio-econimic reasons and ways to move on rather than just putting it down to racism.
Yes, there is still racism out there, and it's disgusting - but calling out racism when it [I[isn't[/I] the issue doesn't help anybody.

 

[Weststander]

https://www.inquest.org.uk/iopc-stats-2020

There's a direct link in there as well to a...home office data on use of force...pdf that you can read, among other documents.

There’s no link to race in there. Proportionately, living on average in poorer socio economic circumstances, more black Britains are taken into custody ....per capita.

But on the overall reasons why anyone’s dying in custody, what did the Coroners or Inquest deduce?

 

[1066familyman]

There’s no link to race in there. Proportionately, living on average in poorer socio economic circumstances, more black Britains are taken into custody ....per capita.

But on the overall reasons why anyone’s dying in custody, what did the Coroners or Inquest deduce?

Eh?, There's whole sections on race in there. The particular statistic highlighted by Inquest is...Black people are subject to 16% of use of force by police, despite comprising 3% of the population.

Just like, as you say yourself, black people are over represented in the prison population.

I take your point about socio economics though. We certainly don't live in a classless society, and in fact the gap between rich and poor is getting wider. But that's a whole other subject, although definitely intertwined with race when you use theories such as intersectionality.

 

[Weststander]

Eh?, There's whole sections on race in there. The particular statistic highlighted by Inquest is...Black people are subject to 16% of use of force by police, despite comprising 3% of the population.

Just like, as you say yourself, black people are over represented in the prison population.

I take your point about socio economics though. We certainly don't live in a classless society, and in fact the gap between rich and poor is getting wider. But that's a whole other subject, although definitely intertwined with race when you use theories such as intersectionality.

I think we’ve ended up in agreement, kind of.

Believe me, I feel as strongly as anyone about racism, especially violent racism going back to Stephen Lawrence. Praying Chauvin gets a full murder conviction that’s never overturned.

 

[Easy 10]

[MENTION=70]Easy 10[/MENTION] has followed the trial closely. Advises that only a unanimous verdict can convict Chauvin.

OK, fary nuff - didn't know that. But surely they would have to have a re-trial - they can't find him not guilty just because one juror out of 12 or 15 or whatever number it is refuses to convict a white man for killing a black man. Surely they can't?

I'm certainly no Perry Mason. I'm just following the trial like anyone else. But you do need a 12/12 to convict in the USA (bar a couple of states, one of which is not Minnesota).

I was involved in a jury that started out with 12, but we lost 1 along the way as the case dragged on, as this person apparently needed to get back to their business. The judge allowed the 1 to leave, but wanted 10 out of the remaining 11 jurors in order to to convict. We got to 9. I argued and argued for a couple of days that this woman was guilty as sin, as did the other jurors, but the other bod wouldn't budge (as was her right - she was not convinced) so we were a hung jury, and it all went to a retrial a few months later.

The next jury found her guilty inside an hour, and she got 2 years for assault and GBH. After the trial I googled her, and she was an absolute LOON with a charge sheet as long as your arm. Imagine my surprise.

 

[1066familyman]

I think we’ve ended up in agreement, kind of.

Believe me, I feel as strongly as anyone about racism, especially violent racism going back to Stephen Lawrence. Praying Chauvin gets a full murder conviction that’s never overturned.

Actually, I don't think we have reached full agreement, no. Aside from the fact we're both hoping for a conviction on this particular case.

You appear to be painting quite a rosy picture of the situation here. Whilst I agree it doesn't equal the USA in terms of an arms race, it seems to me that we still have a long way to go on many issues too.