[News] George Floyd trial

[LamieRobertson]

On point 3, if I were you I would do some research, UK police are not necessarily murderers but there is a huge difference in numbers between white and black people who strangely die " in custody "

I’d be interested in these figures...have you a link?

 

[NooBHA]

As I said in my reply to the first OP, I would be interested to see those statistics - from a credible source, of course.

The fact is that in this country sentencing is governed by very detailed guidelines, taking into account the seriousness of the crime, the affect on the victim, previous offences, TICs, etc. Nothing about ethnicity though. Magistrates' performance, as in any other jobs, is reviewed; failure to sentence within the guidelines will result in negative reports, possibly re-training and ultimately departure from the job if performance remains unsatisfactory.
Furthermore, in 2021 the percentage of magistrates who are BAME is now the same as in the general population. It is also a fact that well over half of all magistrates are women - so the image of all magistrates as vindictive racist white men hell-bent on banging up as many black people as possible for as long as possible is, I'm afraid, nothing more than an urban myth.

Yes, we all know there are still racists in Britain - nobody except a stupid fool would try to deny that, so there is still work to be done - but there is one hell of a lot less racism than there was when us (almost) baby boomers starting protesting against racism in the 60s and 70s. We've made progress; sure, there is still much more progress to be made, but it won't be made by the proliferation of urban myths and fake news on social media. It is also true that there are (very occasionally) miscarriages of justice - but, if you are black and in prison in the UK, the chances are very high that a). you committed the offence for which you were convicted and b). that your sentence is commiserate with the guidelines set for anyone, of whatever ethnicity, who was convicted of the same crime(s) as you.

I have no access to those statistics. It came from a personal friend who is an " SPO " ( Senior Probation Officer ) with Lewisham Council and who has headed up the team of " PO's " I'm massively high profile cases in the past such as in the Damilola Taylor murder case in the 90s so I can't prove it but have no reason to doubt it.

Trials like that and the James Bulger murder trial are testament to how we as a society distinguish between Punishment and Rehabilitation.

Almost everybody in this country could probably tell you the names of the boys who murdered James Bulger because when they were up for parole every newspaper in the country ran with it for the purpose on canvassing public opinion on their suitability to be paroled.

Turn to the Damilola Taylor murder and I would bet you that less than 20 % of the UK population could tell you the names of the boys who murdered him. Why ? Most likely because they are black and we have a tendency in this country to want to Punish black defendants as opposed to Rehabilitating them.

When they were due for parole I didn't see the Press in this country want to have the same discussion that we afforded the James Bulger killers.

 

[Weststander]

I have no access to those statistics. It came from a personal friend who is an " SPO " ( Senior Probation Officer ) with Lewisham Council and who has headed up the team of " PO's " I'm massively high profile cases in the past such as in the Damilola Taylor murder case in the 90s so I can't prove it but have no reason to doubt it.

Trials like that and the James Bulger murder trial are testament to how we as a society distinguish between Punishment and Rehabilitation.

Almost everybody in this country could probably tell you the names of the boys who murdered James Bulger because when they were up for parole every newspaper in the country ran with it for the purpose on canvassing public opinion on their suitability to be paroled.

Turn to the Damilola Taylor murder and I would bet you that less than 20 % of the UK population could tell you the names of the boys who murdered him. Why ? Most likely because they are black and we have a tendency in this country to want to Punish black defendants as opposed to Rehabilitating them.

When they were due for parole I didn't see the Press in this country want to have the same discussion that we afforded the James Bulger killers.

You could be right, could be wrong, it's so hard to establish.

An infant led away by young kids to be tortured to death on a railway line was shocking, a once in a generation event. Thank God. I only remember the names because one's the namesake of an England manager, but also because both have been mentioned by the media relentlessly over 20 plus years, in a witchunt.

Damiola Taylor, I thought that the nation including for years afterwards condemned the crime and felt sorrow for him. I personally hated the murderers with a passion.

Stephen Lawrence, I have the 6 or 7 blokes names and faces etched in my mind.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

The evidence there is clearly the inherent racism that classes Black US citizens as second class citizens. The fact you can't see that and deny it exists proves the problem. And, after all this blows over, it will happen again and again in one form or another, either by overuse of physical force or firearms.

I'm currently watching 'Them' on Amazon Prime. I've seen plenty of movies about racism in the States but this is really pretty raw and shocking. Even more shocking to me is this was happening in 1950s America. You really wonder if much has changed in that time

 

[NooBHA]

You could be right, could be wrong, it's so hard to establish.

An infant led away by young kids to be tortured to death on a railway line was shocking, a once in a generation event. Thank God. I only remember the names because one's the namesake of an England manager, but also because both have been mentioned by the media relentlessly over 20 plus years, in a witchunt.

Damiola Taylor, I thought that the nation including for years afterwards condemned the crime and felt sorrow for him. I personally hated the murderers with a passion.

Stephen Lawrence, I have the 6 or 7 blokes names and faces etched in my mind.

That's what I was meaning.

When the perpetrators are black. We tend to subconsciously have a desire to want to Punish. Lock them up, throw away the key and forget about them. Thankfully the Criminal Justice System doesn't follow the same beliefs but the general public tends to.

 

[Weststander]

That's what I was meaning.

When the perpetrators are black. We tend to subconsciously have a desire to want to Punish. Lock them up, throw away the key and forget about them. Thankfully the Criminal Justice System doesn't follow the same beliefs but the general public tends to.

I must flow against the tide then. I wanted the Lawrence gang sentenced to life, meaning getting out at 70 years old. Outside that civil court in south London, my raw instincts wanted to crowd to get to them.

 

[NooBHA]

I'm currently watching 'Them' on Amazon Prime. I've seen plenty of movies about racism in the States but this is really pretty raw and shocking. Even more shocking to me is this was happening in 1950s America. You really wonder if much has changed in that time

The 1950s ? -. There were several high profile hate crimes perpetrated against young black and young gay men as recent as the 1980s.

One of them I think was chained to a truck and dragged for miles along the streets. The United States have horrendous human rights record even now. They still execute more people every year than any country in the world.

On top of that. Donald Trump rushed through federal executions close to double figures between losing the Election in November and the be Administration being sworn in on January 6th. Including one woman I think.

The Americans are a vengeful nation.

 

[NooBHA]

I must flow against the tide then. I wanted the Lawrence gang sentenced to life, meaning getting out at 70 years old. Outside that civil court in south London, my raw instincts wanted to crowd to get to them.

Me too but if it wasn't for Stephen Lawrence's parents fight against the original collapsed trial then they would have got away with it.

 

[1066familyman]

The 1950s ? -. There were several high profile hate crimes perpetrated against young black and young gay men as recent as the 1980s.

One of them I think was chained to a truck and dragged for miles along the streets. The United States have horrendous human rights record even now. They still execute more people every year than any country in the world.

On top of that. Donald Trump rushed through federal executions close to double figures between losing the Election in November and the be Administration being sworn in on January 6th. Including one woman I think.

The Americans are a vengeful nation.

And in the 1950's that country was still fully living under a form of apartheid, and all that goes with it.

 

[Weststander]

Me too but if it wasn't for Stephen Lawrence's parents fight against the original collapsed trial then they would have got away with it.

SL’s brother (sorry, can’t recall his name), is a remarkable guy. Just published a book. Looks like a great read and story.

 

[Sheebo]

Just a thought, would a Black police officer have " restrained " a White minor felon by kneeling on his neck? A person who was not resisting while being watched by half a dozen other policemen? Would a Black policeman be allowed to slowly kill a " restrained " White man who was pleading that he could not breathe? Would the initial response to this death be to sack the officer and hope that the public forget what happened and file it under " One of those things that can happen? "

The evidence there is clearly the inherent racism that classes Black US citizens as second class citizens. The fact you can't see that and deny it exists proves the problem. And, after all this blows over, it will happen again and again in one form or another, either by overuse of physical force or firearms.

Again, I deal in facts and there’s no 100% facts in this case it was racial. Of course, there is a historic problem with it and it’s mainly against black people by white people. Where have I possibly said it doesn’t exist? Deal in facts and don’t assume or put words in my mouth pal! I actually said I personally think there probably was a racial undertone to it - just that a lot have assumed it was racist when there’s no concrete evidence it was - eg an admission from the officer, a history of racism with them, racist words etc etc. As for those first few questions - nobody knows the answer!!! You’d need an exact replica with the same people, just with the victim being white - guessing. You’re tarring everyone and generalising everyone which is a lot more dangerous than you realise!

 

[NooBHA]

SL’s brother (sorry, can’t recall his name), is a remarkable guy. Just published a book. Looks like a great read and story.

Yeh I saw that. It looks interesting but I am not a big reader of books. I tend to have to do a lot of reading of text for work so find it difficult to commit to any extensive reading socially. If something is gonna take me more than a day or so to get through something then I prefer to do something else with my leisure time.

 

[NooBHA]

Again, I deal in facts and there’s no 100% facts in this case it was racial. Of course, there is a historic problem with it and it’s mainly against black people by white people. Where have I possibly said it doesn’t exist? Deal in facts and don’t assume or put words in my mouth pal! I actually said I personally think there probably was a racial undertone to it - just that a lot have assumed it was racist when there’s no concrete evidence it was - eg an admission from the officer, a history of racism with them, racist words etc etc. As for those first few questions - nobody knows the answer!!! You’d need an exact replica with the same people, just with the victim being white - guessing. You’re tarring everyone and generalising everyone which is a lot more dangerous than you realise!

I tend to agree with you. And I am one of the strongest advocates that racial stereotyping is alive and well today

Even I don't think it was racially MOTIVATED in this instance

That said he killed him and my issue is that all to often justice isn't often afforded to black victims of white perpetrators.

 

[AlbionBro]

Again, I deal in facts and there’s no 100% facts in this case it was racial. Of course, there is a historic problem with it and it’s mainly against black people by white people. Where have I possibly said it doesn’t exist? Deal in facts and don’t assume or put words in my mouth pal! I actually said I personally think there probably was a racial undertone to it - just that a lot have assumed it was racist when there’s no concrete evidence it was - eg an admission from the officer, a history of racism with them, racist words etc etc. As for those first few questions - nobody knows the answer!!! You’d need an exact replica with the same people, just with the victim being white - guessing. You’re tarring everyone and generalising everyone which is a lot more dangerous than you realise!

This seems very sensible and you appear to be a very articulate young man. Well done.

 

[Sheebo]

This seems very sensible and you appear to be a very articulate young man. Well done.

Thanks Bro - appreciate those kind words.

 

[GT49er]

Magistrates can only sentence up to six months. Quite often it is a district judge in magistrates courts, but even then, sentences are time limited.

Longer sentences are sent to Crown court, or more likely to be tried by jury in a Crown Court.

As for inherent racism, I’ve read several accounts where black QCs arriving at courts who have been directed as defendants, instead of counsel, by ushers.

Still sentences are handed down within guide lines.

As for ushers making mistakes, I'm sure the errors are corrected and suitable apologies made - jumping to conclusions is hardly racism

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Still sentences are handed down within guide lines.

As for ushers making mistakes, I'm sure the errors are corrected and suitable apologies made - jumping to conclusions is hardly racism

Hmmmm.....jumping to conclusions is certainly 'unconscious bias' and this is rightly frowned upon in the mainstream workplace now - I even went on a training course on it.

I went to meet a small group of first year undergraduates 18 months ago, who were waiting for me at the lift lobby. I ushered then through the security door. A woman in her 50s, black, followed them. 'Can I help you?' I asked. 'I'm one of your tutees' she said.

Call it unconscious bias or racism or ageism or what you want. She was livid, and it took a fair bit of sweaty-palmed backsliding to reduce the looks of daggers I was receiving. My bad. Entirely. I'd like to think it was the grey hair and evident maturity that fooled me, but I can't be sure. Few of our students are of an African heritage (more than 60% of those I teach are of a south Asian heritage, but whatever) so . . . . yeah, my bad.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Again, I deal in facts and there’s no 100% facts in this case it was racial. Of course, there is a historic problem with it and it’s mainly against black people by white people. Where have I possibly said it doesn’t exist? Deal in facts and don’t assume or put words in my mouth pal! I actually said I personally think there probably was a racial undertone to it - just that a lot have assumed it was racist when there’s no concrete evidence it was - eg an admission from the officer, a history of racism with them, racist words etc etc. As for those first few questions - nobody knows the answer!!! You’d need an exact replica with the same people, just with the victim being white - guessing. You’re tarring everyone and generalising everyone which is a lot more dangerous than you realise!

You understand more about experimental design than half the bloody final year BSC and intercalating medical students I teach

 

[Weststander]

Hmmmm.....jumping to conclusions is certainly 'unconscious bias' and this is rightly frowned upon in the mainstream workplace now - I even went on a training course on it.

I went to meet a small group of first year undergraduates 18 months ago, who were waiting for me at the lift lobby. I ushered then through the security door. A woman in her 50s, black, followed them. 'Can I help you?' I asked. 'I'm one of your tutees' she said.

Call it unconscious bias or racism or ageism or what you want. She was livid, and it took a fair bit of sweaty-palmed backsliding to reduce the looks of daggers I was receiving. My bad. Entirely. I'd like to think it was the grey hair and evident maturity that fooled me, but I can't be sure. Few of our students are of an African heritage (more than 60% of those I teach are of a south Asian heritage, but whatever) so . . . . yeah, my bad.

Similar contemporary stories from female solicitors and barristers attending court cases. Security guards on auto pilot ushering them towards the defendants door (as the accused).

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Similar contemporary stories from female solicitors and barristers attending court cases. Security guards on auto pilot ushering them towards the defendants door (as the accused).

Not right, is it. It will change with time, though, like all things.