Did Jesus Die?

[tedebear]

not selective at all - I never said all...

so your diatribe on which commandments you've done what to only serves to show how trivial societies rights and wrongs are to you, I hardly think stealing a pen is what is meant, or killing an ant is the point...

for any one else out there wanting a decent debate the thing I have always questioned, and was attempting to debate above, was wether the "rules" existed prior to being laid down in the bible and were just adopted for that cause or were they invented by whomever wrote them down... then the point becomes if the former is the case, is this whole thing (ie jesus dying) irrelevant?

 

[tedebear]

Out of interest how many Christians do you know who follow the folowing:

"Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof...and the hare..and the swine,though he divide the hoof and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the hoof: he is unclean to you,,And all that have not fins and scales inthe seas and in the rivers" (Leviticus c11. v4,6,7,10)

Wouldn't know - I'm not Christian?

 

[The Large One]

No, but as you implied, we live in a Christian law-based culture.

You have to remember that these texts were written, transposed or stolen in turbulent, violent times, and they are trying to create some sort of order from the chaos of civilisation back then.

 

[dougdeep]

You don't think there could be a hint of exageration in some of the fables. I mean how many 600 year old men do you know that can build a boat the size of a football pitch?

 

[coventrygull]

not selective at all - I never said all...

so your diatribe on which commandments you've done what to only serves to show how trivial societies rights and wrongs are to you, I hardly think stealing a pen is what is meant, or killing an ant is the point...

for any one else out there wanting a decent debate the thing I have always questioned, and was attempting to debate above, was wether the "rules" existed prior to being laid down in the bible and were just adopted for that cause or were they invented by whomever wrote them down... then the point becomes if the former is the case, is this whole thing (ie jesus dying) irrelevant?

Actually my diatribe has a point. So you don't think stealing a pen or kiling an ant is what is mean't. Buddhism would beg to differ as every action has a cause an effect.

Come on the ten commandments was written by men. In the natural state there is nothing to steal or own. marriage is man made. So a law against adultery is man made.

 

[Mr Burns]

Well the alternative to that is the a big noise made enitre civilisations. So the choice is a little closer than you give it credit for

WHAT! Can someone explain that to me? It was in reply to my siggie below.

 

[goldstone]

You shall have no other Gods but me
THAT'S CRAP

You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
WHO GIVES A SH1T WHO YOU BOW DOWN TO

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
CRAP

You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
CRAP

Respect your father and mother
COMMON SENSE, I WOULD THINK

You must not kill.
ACCEPT THAT

You must not commit adultery.
IN AN IDEAL WORLD, YES

You must not steal.
AGREED

You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
FAIR ENOUGH

You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.
BIT OUT OF DATE, BUT I SEE THE POINT

My earlier comment that the commandments are mostly common sense was made as a result of ignorance of what they actually are. Having re-read them, most are irrelevant nonsense with one or two that are rules that it would make sense for us all to live by.

 

[tedebear]

No, but as you implied, we live in a Christian law-based culture.

You have to remember that these texts were written, transposed or stolen in turbulent, violent times, and they are trying to create some sort of order from the chaos of civilisation back then.

I think we do live in a christian law based culture, and thats the point I was trying to make, wether these rules/suggestions for living were laid down long before they were written in the bible or not, our laws bear a big similarity to them...

 

[tedebear]

Come on the ten commandments was written by men. In the natural state there is nothing to steal or own. marriage is man made. So a law against adultery is man made.

eh? of course they were written by man, I don't get your point? nothing to steal or own? you can steal and or own a person, slavery is a prime case?

 

[tedebear]

You don't think there could be a hint of exageration in some of the fables. I mean how many 600 year old men do you know that can build a boat the size of a football pitch?

completely agree.... I once caught a fish THIIIIIISSSSSSS big...

 

[Citrus in Sheffield]

But on the statues of him on the cross - he's not exactly covered by the biggest cloth around.... i'm reckoning he had a SMALL willy

For such a 'PC' person, I'm quite surprised by this post.

Would you type the same thing about Mohammed?

 

[tedebear]

Ok - I'll go through these also and try to show that whether these were invented before or after they were written in the bible that many of them are either still now socially accepted practices or law...


You shall have no other Gods but me
Agreed out of date...although can apply to people who get caught up in those cults who believe in mass suicide eg Wako and the Moonies

You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
agreed out of date, although strangely the catholic church worship Mary and many other saints, never understood that...

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
We teach out children not to swear? Well I will at least

You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
As a nation there are many shops which still do not open on Sundays

Respect your father and mother
of course, respect for any elder is lacking in todays society.

You must not kill.
This one is law

You must not commit adultery.
This in marriage is also law and can be used as grounds for divorce..

You must not steal.
This one is law

You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
Also this is law, defamation..

You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.
A fairly good idea of decent society, but out of date agreed..

So my point still remains, wether or not they were handed down by whomever thousands of years ago, we do abide by many of them still, does this make us Christian? maybe...maybe not. Thats my point!

 

[Dandyman]

Ok - I'll go through these also and try to show that whether these were invented before or after they were written in the bible that many of them are either still now socially accepted practices or law...


You shall have no other Gods but me
Agreed out of date...although can apply to people who get caught up in those cults who believe in mass suicide eg Wako and the Moonies

You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
agreed out of date, although strangely the catholic church worship Mary and many other saints, never understood that...

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
We teach out children not to swear? Well I will at least

You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
As a nation there are many shops which still do not open on Sundays

Respect your father and mother
of course, respect for any elder is lacking in todays society.

You must not kill.
This one is law

You must not commit adultery.
This in marriage is also law and can be used as grounds for divorce..

You must not steal.
This one is law

You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
Also this is law, defamation..

You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.
A fairly good idea of decent society, but out of date agreed..

So my point still remains, wether or not they were handed down by whomever thousands of years ago, we do abide by many of them still, does this make us Christian? maybe...maybe not. Thats my point!

Belief in Jesus as the son of God and the Redeemer makes you a Christian. All of the above could just as easily apply to Jews, Muslims or to most other belief systems.

 

[tedebear]

Belief in Jesus as the son of God and the Redeemer makes you a Christian. All of the above could just as easily apply to Jews, Muslims or to most other belief systems.

I agree - what I'm trying to say for the last time is that many of the christian, jewish, muslim whatever rules, apply to general society... I'm not Christian but I seem to follow many of the rules and was attempting to show most of us do?

My argument was really asking were these rules invented by god and handed down and then people became followers of them, or did they exist as rules prior to that? If the latter is the case then this makes jesus dying on the cross irrelevant and proves the bible was simply a story of the times not a book created for people to live by? ie what this thread was originally about...

 

[coventrygull]

eh? of course they were written by man, I don't get your point? nothing to steal or own? you can steal and or own a person, slavery is a prime case?

My point is that jews, some christians and moslems see the ten commandments as coming from god. When you read them they were obviously man made.

The law that they shall not kill. What does this apply to. Dose it apply to animals? What about war? If we use christian values in this country do we live by the old or new testament. The words of jesus are very different to the attitudes of the old testament.

 

[coventrygull]

I agree - what I'm trying to say for the last time is that many of the christian, jewish, muslim whatever rules, apply to general society... I'm not Christian but I seem to follow many of the rules and was attempting to show most of us do?

My argument was really asking were these rules invented by god and handed down and then people became followers of them, or did they exist as rules prior to that? If the latter is the case then this makes jesus dying on the cross irrelevant and proves the bible was simply a story of the times not a book created for people to live by? ie what this thread was originally about...

I am not sure what you are trying to say are you saying that civilisations before christ had no moral code?

I am influenced by Buddhism and he existed before christ and they have a strong moral code.

 

[tedebear]

I am not sure what you are trying to say are you saying that civilisations before christ had no moral code?

I am influenced by Buddhism and he existed before christ and they have a strong moral code.

Exactly my question!! Hoorah!! What happened before Christ? the answer is possibly that morals existed long before him so why are people putting such emphasis on the rules he wrote (or handed down) people say they live a Christian life but what really is that? So in relation to this thread - what difference does it make if Jesus died or not?

Can you see what I was trying to get at now?

 

[coventrygull]

Exactly my question!! Hoorah!! What happened before Christ? the answer is possibly that morals existed long before him so why are people putting such emphasis on the rules he wrote (or handed down) people say they live a Christian life but what really is that? So in relation to this thread - what difference does it make if Jesus died or not?

Can you see what I was trying to get at now?

Yes got it now

Well as I don't believe in the resurrection of christ how he died is irrelevant. What he preached is a different matter. It is also how it is interpreted and do we take account of the gnostic gospels.

 

[tedebear]

My point is that jews, some christians and moslems see the ten commandments as coming from god. When you read them they were obviously man made.

Yes and hence my questioning of the basis of religion, did it exist prior to Christ or was it invented by him! to take this further religion is blamed for so many of the wars in the world, but is it really religions fault? as religion seems to be man made not some divine lectures..

but thats another debate...I've had enough..

 

[tedebear]

Yes got it now

Well as I don't believe in the resurrection of christ how he died is irrelevant. What he preached is a different matter. It is also how it is interpreted and do we take account of the gnostic gospels.

Cool, sorry it took me so long to explain... enough now though I think!!