Child Abuse in the Catholic Church

[public school boy]

Dear Piltdown Man .Thanks for your kindest regards. No I'm not a Catholic but do have a Strong faith in a God of my own understanding. In agree that The Catholic Church should be ashamed and not cover up or defend the discusting actions of some but not all of it's Clergy. What anoys me is the inconsistancy of certain Moderaters on NSC when dealing with certain subjects. I think it would be a GOOD idea for certain subjects to be banned from NSC but that's my own thought.
May i wish you and your loved ones a happy and peaceful night
With love
PSB xxx

 

[Fungus]

Interesting article from The Independent - http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-pope-the-prophet-and-the-religious-support-for-evil-1923656.html - too long to post the whole text, but here's the start:

What can make tens of millions of people – who are in their daily lives peaceful and compassionate and caring – suddenly want to physically dismember a man for drawing a cartoon, or make excuses for an international criminal conspiracy to protect child-rapists? Not reason. Not evidence. No. But it can happen when people choose their polar opposite – religion. In the past week we have seen two examples of how people can begin to behave in bizarre ways when they decide it is a good thing to abandon any commitment to fact and instead act on faith. It has led some to regard people accused of the attempted murders of the Mohamed cartoonists as victims, and to demand "respect" for the Pope, when he should be in a police station being quizzed about his role in covering up and thereby enabling the rape of children.

[stands back...]

 

[Juan Albion]

a question -

did priests and reverends decide to take on that career already knowing they would have easy access to children,

Easy access to children? Out of interest, how often do you think priests and reverends are alone with children? Speaking as a reverend, I can tell you it is extremely rare. In fact I can't think of any situations off hand when I would be alone with children.

Generally speaking, you are allowing yourselves to be overwhelmed by the numbers. The Catholic Church has obviously had a problem, much of it, I'm sure, down to the celibacy thing. We are all sexual beings (maybe not 1066 but he's working on it) and it is bound to find a method of expression. But remember what is being found out now is those who abused and were covered up over many decades. In that time, how many priests have there been? Hundreds of thousands I would imagine. A very tiny minority have been guilty of abuse, probably no higher than in any other profession (maybe even lower). But when it is a priest you will always getting much more coverage and outrage (rightly so). In the meantime, almost all the priests over those decades have been busy doing good work in your community. You just don't read about it.

 

[Juan Albion]

What can make tens of millions of people – who are in their daily lives peaceful and compassionate and caring – suddenly want to physically dismember a man for drawing a cartoon, or make excuses for an international criminal conspiracy to protect child-rapists?

Shoddy logic, poor journalism. I'm surprised you even dare quote it because it doesn't reflect too well on you for thinking it worthy. Joining the outrage of muslims and the cover-up by a few church officials into the same phrase? Doesn't make any logical sense. Tens of millions of people are not making excuses for an international criminal conspiracy.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Easy access to children? Out of interest, how often do you think priests and reverends are alone with children? Speaking as a reverend, I can tell you it is extremely rare. In fact I can't think of any situations off hand when I would be alone with children.

Generally speaking, you are allowing yourselves to be overwhelmed by the numbers. The Catholic Church has obviously had a problem, much of it, I'm sure, down to the celibacy thing. We are all sexual beings (maybe not 1066 but he's working on it) and it is bound to find a method of expression. But remember what is being found out now is those who abused and were covered up over many decades. In that time, how many priests have there been? Hundreds of thousands I would imagine. A very tiny minority have been guilty of abuse, probably no higher than in any other profession (maybe even lower). But when it is a priest you will always getting much more coverage and outrage (rightly so). In the meantime, almost all the priests over those decades have been busy doing good work in your community. You just don't read about it.

But even on what the Vatican has admitted to there's been 20 000 priests known by them to abuse. The fact that these are most likely to have been serial offenders the numbers of abused rapidly rise.

The response to the Vicar close to where I live who recently was sent to prison for child abuse was amazing. Truly amazing to me anyway. Many like myself believed he should be left to rot. He not only abused but led a ring of abusers and groomed children. However and this frankly unbelievable, whilst in his position he was highly regarded for his "work". Everyone appeared to appreciate his community work. When the news broke of his arrest and then prosecution there were still people from his church who defended him, saying such things as "he's a lovely dear man" and "devoted" etc. In fact he is an evil , twisted, manipulative sick man who abused his position.

Though I fully respect your work and the good the many people of the cloth do, as was proved yet again what a charade these type of people play. Unfortunately the church plays this charade as well.

 

[Fungus]

Shoddy logic, poor journalism. I'm surprised you even dare quote it because it doesn't reflect too well on you for thinking it worthy. Joining the outrage of muslims and the cover-up by a few church officials into the same phrase? Doesn't make any logical sense. Tens of millions of people are not making excuses for an international criminal conspiracy.

Interesting response. Why should it be "daring" for me to post this, and why should it reflect poorly on my thinking? My only comment on it was a neutral "interesting".

The main thrust of the article was that crimes in religious circles are often viewed differently than crimes in other circles - he cites The Independent as a hypothetical example - public opinion and the law would rightly have jumped on it long ago.

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Juan Albion]

But even on what the Vatican has admitted to there's been 20 000 priests known by them to abuse. The fact that these are most likely to have been serial offenders the numbers of abused rapidly rise.

The response to the Vicar close to where I live who recently was sent to prison for child abuse was amazing. Truly amazing to me anyway. Many like myself believed he should be left to rot. He not only abused but led a ring of abusers and groomed children. However and this frankly unbelievable, whilst in his position he was highly regarded for his "work". Everyone appeared to appreciate his community work. When the news broke of his arrest and then prosecution there were still people from his church who defended him, saying such things as "he's a lovely dear man" and "devoted" etc. In fact he is an evil , twisted, manipulative sick man who abused his position.

Though I fully respect your work and the good the many people of the cloth do, as was proved yet again what a charade these type of people play. Unfortunately the church plays this charade as well.

I think you have obviously forgotten that he is, first and foremost, a human being. Obviously he was a human being with problems. If he had been a teacher, would you have been surprised if some of the shocked parents had said that he was a good teacher who the kids thought was great? If he'd been a footballer, would you be surprised if fans of his team said he was a good player?

In this case I assume it was a "lovely dear and devoted man" who was ALSO an evil, twisted, sick man when it came to his sexual proclivities. If you think that by saying someone was doing a good job is the same as saying that they supported the evil he was doing, I'd suggest you might be a bigot who is looking for ways to knock the church.

 

[Juan Albion]

Interesting response. Why should it be "daring" for me to post this, and why should it reflect poorly on my thinking? My only comment on it was a neutral "interesting".

The main thrust of the article was that crimes in religious circles are often viewed differently than crimes in other circles - he cites The Independent as a hypothetical example - public opinion and the law would rightly have jumped on it long ago.

Seems reasonable to me.

Because of all the well-written quotes you could have found, you chose to use one that was illogical and badly written. That says something about the person who decided it was worth cutting and pasting.

 

[cjd]

A very tiny minority have been guilty of abuse, probably no higher than in any other profession (maybe even lower). But when it is a priest you will always getting much more coverage and outrage (rightly so).

Am I missing something here...?

Shouldn't an organisation like the priesthood have 0% guilty of abuse...?

 

[DerbyGull]

Insults are very brave. In fact I do have a clue and would you kindly come back with a proper argument and not childish insults. Anyone who is religious should be able to defend their beliefs without resorting to the above. The facts are in the wider domain and can not be refuted.

You're generalising that the Catholic church harbours criminals 'of the highest order'- with NO evidence to back it up.

You provided some two-bob website (not an official government stats one, something of which UNI's mark you down on, cos anyone can make things up then publish them).

Here's a quote from the two bob outfit: 'The report alleged 2,000 cases of abuse over a 60-year period'. (A very small amout on the grand scale of things)

Now this: Approximately 30,000 children are currently on child protection registers. A child's name is placed on the register when health or social services staff are concerned that the child's at risk of abuse (BBC, 2008). Source: BBC - Parenting - Your kids - Child abuse

Now, STATISTICS from the NSPCC:

1% of children aged under 16 experienced sexual abuse 1 by a parent or carer, and a further 3% by another relative during childhood.
Cawson, P. et al. (2000) Child maltreatment in the United Kingdom: a study of the prevalence of child abuse and neglect. London: NSPCC. p.85.

11% of children aged under 16 experienced sexual abuse 1 during childhood by people known but unrelated to them.
Cawson, P. et al. (2000) Child maltreatment in the United Kingdom: a study of the prevalence of child abuse and neglect. London: NSPCC. p.86.


5% of children aged under 16 experienced sexual abuse 1 during childhood by an adult stranger or someone they had just met.
Cawson, P. et al. (2000) Child maltreatment in the United Kingdom: a study of the prevalence of child abuse and neglect. London: NSPCC. p.86.


In total, 16% of children aged under 16 experienced sexual abuse 1 during childhood. 11% of this was contact abuse and 6% was non-contact.
Cawson, P. et al. (2000) Child maltreatment in the United Kingdom: a study of the prevalence of child abuse and neglect. London: NSPCC. p.85.


Overall, 11% of boys aged under 16 and 21% of girls aged under 16 experienced sexual abuse 1 during childhood.
Cawson, P. et al. (2000) Child maltreatment in the United Kingdom: a study of the prevalence of child abuse and neglect. London: NSPCC. p.85.


The majority of children who experienced sexual abuse 1 had more than one sexually abusive experience; only indecent exposure was likely to be a single incident.
Cawson, P. et al. (2000) Child maltreatment in the United Kingdom: a study of the prevalence of child abuse and neglect. London: NSPCC. p.89.


Three-quarters (72%) of sexually abused children did not tell anyone about the abuse at the time. 27% told someone later. Around a third (31%) still had not told anyone about their experience(s) by early adulthood.
Cawson, P. et al. (2000) Child maltreatment in the United Kingdom: a study of the prevalence of child abuse and neglect. London: NSPCC. p.83.


More than one third (36%) of all rapes recorded by the police are committed against children under 16 years of age.
Walker, A., Kershaw, C. and Nicholas, S. (2006) Crime in England and Wales 2005/06 (PDF). Home Office Statistical Bulletin (July 2006 / 12/06).


A study which examined police data on rapes committed against children found that children under the age of 12 were the most likely of all those aged 16 and under to have reported being raped by someone they knew well 2 . Children under the age of 12 were least likely to have been raped by a stranger 3 . Children between 13 and 15 years of age were the most likely to have reported being raped by an ‘acquaintance’ 4 .
Harris, J. and Grace, S. (1999) A question of evidence? Investigating and prosecuting rape in the 1990s (PDF) Home Office Research Study 196. Home Office. p.7.


Latest available figures show that in 2002 in England and Wales 45% of all rapes and attempted rapes that resulted in conviction were committed against children under 16 5 .
Kelly, L., Lovett, J. and Regan, L. (2005) A gap or a chasm? Attrition in reported rape cases (PDF) Home Office Research Study 293. London: Home Office.


Latest available figures show that in 2002 in England and Wales 1,288 individuals were prosecuted for the rape or attempted rape of a child under 16. 292 (23% of those prosecuted) received a conviction.
Kelly, L., Lovett, J. and Regan, L. (2005) A gap or a chasm? Attrition in reported rape cases (PDF) Home Office Research Study 293. London: Home Office. p.26.


For the children who experienced sexual abuse in the family, the most common perpetrator was a brother or stepbrother:


38% of penetrative/oral acts of sexual abuse in the family were by a brother/stepbrother
23% were perpetrated by a father
14% were perpetrated by an uncle
13% were perpetrated by a stepfather
8% were perpetrated by a cousin
6% were perpetrated by a grandfather
4% were perpetrated by a mother 6 .

For other forms of sexual abuse (attempted penetrative/oral acts, touching, voyeurism/pornography and exposure) brothers were also the most frequently cited perpetrator.

Cawson, P. et al. (2000) Child maltreatment in the United Kingdom: a study of the prevalence of child abuse and neglect. London: NSPCC. p.80.


For the children who experienced sexual abuse outside of the family, the most common perpetrator was a boyfriend or girlfriend.


70% of penetrative/oral acts of sexual abuse outside of the family were by a boyfriend/girlfriend
17% were perpetrated by 'someone I recently met' 7
10% were perpetrated by a fellow student/pupil
6% were perpetrated by a friend of their parents
6% were perpetrated by a friend of their brother/sister.

Very few children (less than 1%) experienced abuse by professionals in a position of trust, for example a teacher, religious leader or care/social worker.

Cawson, P. et al. (2000) Child maltreatment in the United Kingdom: a study of the prevalence of child abuse and neglect. London: NSPCC. p.81.

Source: Child sexual abuse statistics | NSPCC statistics


So YOUR little dig at the church with your small findings, pales in significance with these OFFICIAL STATISTICS.

Moral of the story is (as has been mentioned so many times, in previous religious threads) that there is scum present in any constitution/organisation/business etc etc etc.

THE MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS/OTHER RELIGIONS/ATHEISTS ARE DECENT PEOPLE WHO WOULD NOT DO ANY HORRIBLE, LIFE SCARRING THINGS TO CHILDREN. (REPEAT THAT TO YOURSELF OVER AND OVER)

 

[brighton bluenose]

Several years ago when child abuse reared its ugly head it was admitted that priests not being able to marry could well be the reason that child abuse resulted.It was then stated that the reason that priests were not allowed to marry came about because it was cheaper to have single men rather than a married family man. I quite expected that this situation would be normalised for the benifit of all,instead members of the faith have been advised to fast to put matters right.

Surely priests were not allowed to marry as they had taken a vow of celibacy and the whole point of marriage in the eyes of the RC church is to 'go forth and multiply'??!!

 

[Juan Albion]

But even on what the Vatican has admitted to there's been 20 000 priests known by them to abuse.

Typical bending of stats. The article you yourself quoted said they had said 1.5% to 5% of priests, which means up to 20,000. All of a sudden that's the same as saying there ARE 20,000. Actually it means they are saying somewhere between 6,000 and 20,000. The fact that you immediately jump and take the highest possible figure as right says a lot about your mindset.

Having said that, I would never defend child abusers, and even if it is 6,000, that is 6,000 too many.

But let's not forget that 1.5%-5% is also saying that between 95% and 98.5% have not been abusing children. I don't suppose for a minute you've thought of it from that perspective.

 

[Juan Albion]

Am I missing something here...?

Shouldn't an organisation like the priesthood have 0% guilty of abuse...?

I'm sure it would love to have 0%, but do you honestly think that is ever going to happen in ANY organisation that employs hundreds of thousands of HUMAN BEINGS? Good grief.

 

[beorhthelm]

Shoddy logic, poor journalism.

only if you really dont understand the point, that religion makes people act irrationaly or without reason.

Shouldn't an organisation like the priesthood have 0% guilty of abuse...?

you mean given their supposed moral guidence? you'd have thought so. but its not so bad, they after all only human (when it suits).

 

[Questions]

Child Abuser in the Catholic church

Oh, I thought it was a job vacancy when I first read it.

 

[Juan Albion]

only if you really dont understand the point, that religion makes people act irrationaly or without reason.

Do you honestly see no problem with the way it is set out? Good grief.

 

[DerbyGull]

Am I missing something here...?

Shouldn't an organisation like the priesthood have 0% guilty of abuse...?

In an ideal word YES.

But since ALL humans are NOT INFALLIBLE then your answer would be NO.
Those Catholics (if you can call them that) that do abuse are going to HELL

 

[Fungus]

But let's not forget that 1.5%-5% is also saying that between 95% and 98.5% have not been abusing children. I don't suppose for a minute you've thought of it from that perspective.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I think you have obviously forgotten that he is, first and foremost, a human being. Obviously he was a human being with problems. If he had been a teacher, would you have been surprised if some of the shocked parents had said that he was a good teacher who the kids thought was great? If he'd been a footballer, would you be surprised if fans of his team said he was a good player?

In this case I assume it was a "lovely dear and devoted man" who was ALSO an evil, twisted, sick man when it came to his sexual proclivities. If you think that by saying someone was doing a good job is the same as saying that they supported the evil he was doing, I'd suggest you might be a bigot who is looking for ways to knock the church.

Firstly no I'm not a bigot. There has to be tendency for irrationality for that. The definition sits closer to those of the Catholic Church I'm afraid. The point I make is that I find through my life experiences, people who are considered very devoted to their beliefs, find it hard to come to terms with anything that is opposed to that belief. I find the comments made by the parishioners hard to understand. Yes much of his work was "good" but on finding out his secret surely that should change ones opinion. In fact his parishioners should be angry for being led along a nasty path of deceit.

 

[cjd]

T

But let's not forget that 1.5%-5% is also saying that between 95% and 98.5% have not been abusing children. I don't suppose for a minute you've thought of it from that perspective.

I find it quite unnerving that a reverend as yourself, you should think the above quote is worthy of any kind of good thoughts.