'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far?

[Thunder Bolt]

1. What do you mean flooding? When the gates were opened, what forced these "new" fans to flood the area if they could see there was no space in front of them?

One factor was the warmish Spring day which meant that the Liverpool fans were out on the streets enjoying a drink and then heading for the ground at around 2.45. Please not I haven't said drunk fans but enjoying the warm sunshine where a lot of fans would do the same.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I've wondered that too. The section El Presidente quoted only seems to mention fans weren't stopped by stewards/police from going into the central pens, but why they didn't see the lack of room and decide to go back and head for one of the other pens.

I've embarked on reading the Taylor Report and will then read the new one, but have only just started so don't have the answer yet.

The tunnel prevented seeing the lack of room although some fans did try to turn back which exacerbated the problem.

 

[El Presidente]

I've wondered that too. The section El Presidente quoted only seems to mention fans weren't stopped by stewards/police from going into the central pens, but why they didn't see the lack of room and decide to go back and head for one of the other pens.

I've embarked on reading the Taylor Report and will then read the new one, but have only just started so don't have the answer yet.

Acker, there is a good diagram on the BBC website which shows how the problem arose, and the issue in relation to the way the pens were organised......here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19545126

 

[Spider]

1. What do you mean flooding? When the gates were opened, what forced these "new" fans to flood the area if they could see there was no space in front of them?

2. Post #41. You posted it as being from the Taylor Report.

Have you never been in a crowd situation where the weight of people accumulates? It's not simply that some people were 'pushing' at the back, it's the accumulated effect of lots of people moving forwards that, by the time it gets to the front, becomes a crush. People coming in at the back get onto the terrace, people in front of them move forward to accomodate them, and so on, but by the time those small steps forward reach the front, which is already completely rammed, it becomes a proper crush.

Plus, there's the fact that most people would push a bit to try and get to a point where they could see the game - because they likely wouldn't realise the disaster that was happening at the front. If most people were stuck in the tunnel into the terrace they would try and push onto it, which is probably a reasonable thing to do if you assumed that it wasn't heavily overfilled - since most people leave more space around them than is actually necessary.

 

[El Presidente]

 

[Barrel of Fun]

If the people in front of me couldn't move, OBVIOUSLY I'm not going to force them forward.

People in front of you are going to be able to move as they are at the back. There is always going to be people freely moving at the back of the crowd. We are not talking about a solid wedge of people in a pen and forcing oneself in to the area. Think of a solid at the front, a liquid in the middle and a gas at the back.

 

[Mellotron]

I need to read the Report before making any further comment I think. We probably all should, it's too important a situation to just make assumptions about.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I give up. Yes, you're right. All of the evidence over the last 23 years leads to both inquiries arriving at the wrong verdict. There are 400,000 pages of testimony and evidence, no, I haven't read them all but an independent body did and concluded that the people responsible for the 96 deaths were South Yorkshire Police but of course that is wrong. Evidence was tampered with to shift the blame on to Liverpool fans. Members of the governing tories were involved in the smear campaign although they have now started blaming S Yorks Police. But, you're right, you and a couple of others on here insist that all of the evidence is wrong so it must be. I'm convinced, f***ing scousers killed their own and S Yorks Police have been right all along.

Bwian, you have been chucking the FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND pages of evidence at me all week, now you say that you have not read them all. Please answer my earlier questions.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Once again my point is the same - what was the cause of the crush in the first place?

Can I just make clear at this point that I am 100% not blaming the fans. I'm just trying to understand it. Clearly a number of errors were made by a number of people in terms of controlling the overcrowding, but I'm curious why the overcrowding occurred in the first place.

I've been in public places where there is a bottleneck, and if I can see in front of myself that I would be pushing people forward without knowing whether they had space to be pushed into, no chance would I do that. But then I don't generally go to games drunk.

This is a very good point and everyone is ignoring it.

Something must've happened outside for the police to panick and open the gates. Yes you can answer that question by simply saying there was a crush outside, but to me the answer is that people outside leppings lane were pushing to try and get in. That was what started the whole chain reaction. Yes, that was also ultimately caused by poor crowd control, but I wonder if any of those people feel any guilt for pushing from the back causing the gates to be opened? I bet there's a few people who have never admitted to being there at the time and pushing to get in because they were late for the game.

 

[Questions]

I still believe there might well have been fatalities when we played Spurs in 78 if there had been fences up. So many kids escaped on to the pitch that day when the crushes started. What was the solution to the troubles that day ? Cage everyone in.

 

[Mellotron]

People in front of you are going to be able to move as they are at the back. There is always going to be people freely moving at the back of the crowd. We are not talking about a solid wedge of people in a pen and forcing oneself in to the area. Think of a solid at the front, a liquid in the middle and a gas at the back.

By this logic regarding herd mentality though surely this sort of thing would happen all the time at music concerts and other events with a finite amount of room?

 

[Hamilton]

This whole thread from post 1 onwards is so depressing.

96 people died.

Munich was a tragedy, heysel was terrible, the luzhniki stadium was a disaster. In each case the dead should be remembered with respect.

In some cases people should be held to account for decisions that were made. If we can't hold people to account then perhaps we should halt events that involve large masses coming together.

If I was a parent of a child that attended an event and they did not come home because of what I suspected to be the wrong decisions of people in charge on the day, would I give up my fight for justice? No. Would I expect my club to support me? Yes.

Some people have lost all sense of dignity, respect and justice. There is no debate here. The evidence is clear. What is there to debate?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Bwian, you have been chucking the FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND pages of evidence at me all week, now you say that you have not read them all. Please answer my earlier questions.

Rather than having a go on Nsc, try reading the evidence for yourself.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

I still believe there might well have been fatalities when we played Spurs in 78 if there had been fences up. So many kids escaped on to the pitch that day when the crushes started. What was the solution to the troubles that day ? Cage everyone in.

Who was responsible for the cages?

 

[El Presidente]

This is a very good point and everyone is ignoring it.

Something must've happened outside for the police to panick and open the gates. Yes you can answer that question by simply saying there was a crush outside, but to me the answer is that people outside leppings lane were pushing to try and get in. That was what started the whole chain reaction. Yes, that was also ultimately caused by poor crowd control, but I wonder if any of those people feel any guilt for pushing from the back causing the gates to be opened? I bet there's a few people who have never admitted to being there at the time and pushing to get in because they were late for the game.

There was pushing because there were insufficient turnstiles. I'm not saying that Scousers are angelic, and have given them plenty of stick about other things, but on this one they are the innocent parties.

 

[Acker79]

The tunnel prevented seeing the lack of room although some fans did try to turn back which exacerbated the problem.

I don't understand how that works. I walk through a tunnel, I get to the end of it and there is a mass of bodies because they can't move further forward because there is no space in front of them. I then have several options:
-Talk to the guy in front of me, ask him what the hold up is, if he can let me through, he can tell me or the people in front of him.
-I can wait patiently for the obstruction to pass
-I can turn back, letting the people I turn to know there's no room. Spread word backwards so that the queue of people in the tunnel start heading back before turning back myself, so avoid exacerbating things. I know that is easy to say after the fact, but I know I'm not the sort of person to push people in queues or crowds to get somewhere urgently.

I'm also confused as to how the fans turning back in the tunnel exacerbated things in the pen.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Sorry WQW but the report does say the police caused the tragedy, as they made the decision to open the gate and did not block off the entrance to the two central pens where all the deaths occured. If they had made either of those decisions then the deaths would not have arisen. The report clearly states that, as does the 1990 Taylor Report.

Sorry Pres, could you please send/quote the actual paragraphs to me? I am honest enough to say that I will dissect the quotes, and check their relevance.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't understand how that works. I walk through a tunnel, I get to the end of it and there is a mass of bodies because they can't move further forward because there is no space in front of them. I then have several options:
-Talk to the guy in front of me, ask him what the hold up is, if he can let me through, he can tell me or the people in front of him.
-I can wait patiently for the obstruction to pass
-I can turn back, letting the people I turn to know there's no room. Spread word backwards so that the queue of people in the tunnel start heading back before turning back myself, so avoid exacerbating things. I know that is easy to say after the fact, but I know I'm not the sort of person to push people in queues or crowds to get somewhere urgently.

I'm also confused as to how the fans turning back in the tunnel exacerbated things in the pen.

The crush started before the tunnel. This is an example from just 2 years ago at a pop concert.
Love Parade: 17 crushed to death and at least 80 injured after mass panic in tunnel | Mail Online

 

[Questions]

I wouldn't have batted an eyelid at some of the songs from the seventies and eighties but I cringe nowadays.
Growing up or just being an old fart now ? I dunno.

 

[Acker79]

I need to read the Report before making any further comment I think. We probably all should, it's too important a situation to just make assumptions about.

Yeah, this. I'm going to continue reading the report.