'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far?

[Worthingite]

[/B]

It just happened to be Hillsborough but it could have been any number of matches that I have attended and indeed the countless stories on this site last week clearly indicated that it was going to happen sooner or later. The authorities would not listen,they knew best. With the help of the police they were going to kill a large group of people sooner or later.......

So I say all seater stadiums are here to stay. They are safer. I have never taken my kids to a match where I feared for their safety and I never would.

Absolutely fair comment, I was 7 when Hillsborough happened and had only ever been to one "big" football match by that age - Leicester v Liverpool in 1986!! I remember being shit scared, but for reasons that I can't remember (being 4 I would have imagined it was probably the sheer amount of people!!). I don't fully appreciate how frightening that type of scenario could be because I wasn't there. I like the idea of "safe standing", purely because I believe it fits, but I don't know enough to be able to justify it any more than that.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

The police added to the Hillsborough tradgey with their ineptitude but the tories caging in the fans added to the deaths. Its not as if it hadn't happened before either (Burnden Park) with 30 odd deaths and the teams played on with the corpses laid out on the touchline I belive.

The police tried to blame Liverpool fans for their mishandling and the government let them get away with it. But no one in politics in the last 23 years can say they are not guilty either. For 23 years its been blatantly obvious that the police were at fault and I have not heard of many MP's fighting to put it right until now.

Fans will always try and wind up the opposite side and their fans, if the media and handwringers ignored it it might go away and I don't want to see the end of songs and banter just get rid of the nasty stuff and racism. I havent got a boyfriend but those chants never upset me and if I did have one I still dont think I would be upset. I can't see how group chants at another group can be upsetting to an individual.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Fair point, understood. Why did it get to a point where a crash barrier collapsed, without people pushing unnecessarily? The report mentions a drunken minority who made it worse.

There was a crush outside in Leppings Lane itself which is why the police made the decision to open the gate as the turnstiles were too decrepit and not coping. It's all in the Taylor report.

 

[Questions]

I agree with you on the first issue Q, it was a lottery on the terraces at some matches in those days.

There is no evidence today, with modern engineering, tighter ticket control, better stewarding, and most importantly NO FENCES, that another Hillsborough could arise in the UK.

No not another Hillsborough EP but still the possibility that standing areas will attract disproportionate amounts of people to certain areas of a terrace. You know that would happen for a variety of reasons. Unless everyone has a cross on the floor to stand on and doesn't,t move off it.

 

[El Presidente]

Fair point, understood. Why did it get to a point where a crash barrier collapsed, without people pushing unnecessarily? The report mentions a drunken minority who made it worse.

1: It got to that point when the police decided to open the gates, thereby flooding the ONLY entrance to the pens with extra fans.

2: WHERE in the report does it mention a drunken minority..................apart from The Sun?

 

[pottert]

So have Leeds fans. When do they get theirs?

My comment was based on the Liverpool fans singing songs about Munich.

Why is it ok to sing songs about Munich but not ok to sing songs about hillsborough.

 

[wellquickwoody]

He didn't blame it all on the police, a four hundred page report, which analysed over 400,000 pieces of evidence, blamed it on the police, and reinforced what the Taylor Report concluded in 1990. The main difference between the report last week and the Taylor report was the confirmation that South Yorkshire Police had doctored evidence.

Your opinion is based on what exactly?

Sorry Pres, but 40 thousand pieces of evidence did NOT say that the Police /Authorities caused the tragedy, but that they did not react in the appropriate manner once the problems unfolded.

 

[Acker79]

I don't understand why anyone thinks this will stop the chanting?

So the truth is finally confirmed, so what? Did Liverpool fans only sing songs about Munich because no one knew the truth about Hillsborough? No, they sang it because of tribal rivalry, and because Utd fans sang songs about Hillsborough. Did Man Utd fans sing songs about Hillsborough because the believed the fans to be at fault? No, they sang it because of the tribal rivalry, and because Liverpool sang songs about Munich.

In fact, this attitude that the vile chants should stop now we know the truth about Hillsborough could have the opposite effect. Would we be happy if we had to suffer year of vile songs about a tragedy in our past, and then be told everyone should stop now that more information has come to light about a palace tragedy (when palace were the main people singing songs that made light of our tragedy)? The truth of Munich has been known for a while, yet the media at large and fan attitude hasn't been "time to stop these vile chants", how come liverpool get special dispensation?

So, again, why do people think it will stop?

 

[El Presidente]

No not another Hillsborough EP but still the possibility that standing areas will attract disproportionate amounts of people to certain areas of a terrace. You know that would happen for a variety of reasons. Unless everyone has a cross on the floor to stand on and doesn't,t move off it.

Fair enough Q, but if you are bringing kids by all means go to the seats (they get a better view there anyway if they are small).

Terraces are not inherently unsafe.

 

[Mellotron]

There was a crush outside in Leppings Lane itself which is why the police made the decision to open the gate as the turnstiles were too decrepit and not coping. It's all in the Taylor report.

Once again my point is the same - what was the cause of the crush in the first place?

Can I just make clear at this point that I am 100% not blaming the fans. I'm just trying to understand it. Clearly a number of errors were made by a number of people in terms of controlling the overcrowding, but I'm curious why the overcrowding occurred in the first place.

I've been in public places where there is a bottleneck, and if I can see in front of myself that I would be pushing people forward without knowing whether they had space to be pushed into, no chance would I do that. But then I don't generally go to games drunk.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

How would you suggest a rivalry should manifest itself then? You are contradicting yourself.

It has to be close to the bone to make it real, I would even go as far to say that once fighting at football is totaly eradicated - and it will be in a few years - that rivalries will disappear. All the proper rivalries in football are born of a genuine tribal hatred of each other, in the future when it's simply people arguing on internet message boards everyone will realise that it's a waste of time unless you REALLY mean it.

I think you are somewhat collapsing rivalry and hatred, which are not necessarily the same things.

 

[Bwian]

Who says everything you read is correct? Who says all that you see is exactly as it seems? Why do we always have to blame someone for something when we had a hand it what happened? Who says the latest inquiry didn't have it's own agenda. Sorry i'm a cynic by nature these days.

I give up. Yes, you're right. All of the evidence over the last 23 years leads to both inquiries arriving at the wrong verdict. There are 400,000 pages of testimony and evidence, no, I haven't read them all but an independent body did and concluded that the people responsible for the 96 deaths were South Yorkshire Police but of course that is wrong. Evidence was tampered with to shift the blame on to Liverpool fans. Members of the governing tories were involved in the smear campaign although they have now started blaming S Yorks Police. But, you're right, you and a couple of others on here insist that all of the evidence is wrong so it must be. I'm convinced, f***ing scousers killed their own and S Yorks Police have been right all along.

 

[Mellotron]

1: It got to that point when the police decided to open the gates, thereby flooding the ONLY entrance to the pens with extra fans.

2: WHERE in the report does it mention a drunken minority..................apart from The Sun?

1. What do you mean flooding? When the gates were opened, what forced these "new" fans to flood the area if they could see there was no space in front of them?

2. Post #41. You posted it as being from the Taylor Report.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Once again my point is the same - what was the cause of the crush in the first place?

Can I just make clear at this point that I am 100% not blaming the fans. I'm just trying to understand it. Clearly a number of errors were made by a number of people in terms of controlling the overcrowding, but I'm curious why the overcrowding occurred in the first place.

I've been in public places where there is a bottleneck, and if I can see in front of myself that I would be pushing people forward without knowing whether they had space to be pushed into, no chance would I do that. But then I don't generally go to games drunk.

All the evidence is here although there is a lot to read. This is the 1990 report.
http://www.fsf.org.uk/uploaded/publications/pdfs/interim%20report%20hillsborough.pdf

 

[Acker79]

Once again my point is the same - what was the cause of the crush in the first place?

Can I just make clear at this point that I am 100% not blaming the fans. I'm just trying to understand it. Clearly a number of errors were made by a number of people in terms of controlling the overcrowding, but I'm curious why the overcrowding occurred in the first place.

I've been in public places where there is a bottleneck, and if I can see in front of myself that I would be pushing people forward without knowing whether they had space to be pushed into, no chance would I do that. But then I don't generally go to games drunk.

I've wondered that too. The section El Presidente quoted only seems to mention fans weren't stopped by stewards/police from going into the central pens, but why they didn't see the lack of room and decide to go back and head for one of the other pens.

I've embarked on reading the Taylor Report and will then read the new one, but have only just started so don't have the answer yet.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

1. What do you mean flooding? When the gates were opened, what forced these "new" fans to flood the area if they could see there was no space in front of them?

A crush is not evident at the very back. You'd happily wait in the concourse, if Brighton were playing, to wait until there was ample space available to saunter in and see your team?

 

[Mellotron]

All the evidence is here although there is a lot to read. This is the 1990 report.
http://www.fsf.org.uk/uploaded/publications/pdfs/interim%20report%20hillsborough.pdf

I doubt it will cover why anyone felt the need to push forward, if they did indeed do that. I should read it though.

 

[Mellotron]

A crush is not evident at the very back. You'd happily wait in the concourse, if Brighton were playing, to wait until there was ample space available to saunter in and see your team?

If the people in front of me couldn't move, OBVIOUSLY I'm not going to force them forward.

 

[El Presidente]

Sorry Pres, but 40 thousand pieces of evidence did NOT say that the Police /Authorities caused the tragedy, but that they did not react in the appropriate manner once the problems unfolded.

Sorry WQW but the report does say the police caused the tragedy, as they made the decision to open the gate and did not block off the entrance to the two central pens where all the deaths occured. If they had made either of those decisions then the deaths would not have arisen. The report clearly states that, as does the 1990 Taylor Report.

 

[Acker79]

2: WHERE in the report does it mention a drunken minority..................apart from The Sun?

The very last line of the excerpt you quoted.