'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far?

[El Presidente]

One thing I'm slightly confused by, and I apologise if I've missed something and am being incredibly naive - but what caused the crushing?

As in, if you see if there is no space in front of you...you stand still. Not just push into the people in front of you? Were the Police forcing people to squeeze in tighter where there was no room? And when they could see this was causing serious overcrowding issues, what then happened?

Summarised from the Taylor Report

1. The immediate cause of the Disaster was the failure to cut off access to the central pens once gate C had been opened. This caused the overcrowding which led to the Disaster.

2. The central pens (3 and 4) were already overfull because there was no numerical control of entry nor any effective visual monitoring of crowd density.

3. Under the strain of overcrowding in Pen 3, a barrier collapsed, exacerbated by what Taylor referred to as the "sluggish reaction and response when the crush occurred". Lack of leadership and the small size and number of gates in the perimeter fencing hindered rescue attempts.

4. Gate C, an 'exit' gate between the inner concourse and the outside, was opened by the police because of the dangerous congestion at the turnstiles. There was no recognition, either by the club or the police, that unless fans arrived steadily over a long, drawn-out period the turnstiles would not be capable of coping with the large numbers involved. This was made worse by the fact that the operational order and police tactics did not consider the possibility of a large concentration of late arrivals. This situation, according to Taylor, was made worse by a drunken minority and the club's confused and inadequate signs and ticketing.1. The immediate cause of the Disaster was the failure to cut off access to the central pens once gate C had been opened. This caused the overcrowding which led to the Disaster.

2. The central pens (3 and 4) were already overfull because there was no numerical control of entry nor any effective visual monitoring of crowd density.

3. Under the strain of overcrowding in Pen 3, a barrier collapsed, exacerbated by what Taylor referred to as the "sluggish reaction and response when the crush occurred". Lack of leadership and the small size and number of gates in the perimeter fencing hindered rescue attempts.

4. Gate C, an 'exit' gate between the inner concourse and the outside, was opened by the police because of the dangerous congestion at the turnstiles. There was no recognition, either by the club or the police, that unless fans arrived steadily over a long, drawn-out period the turnstiles would not be capable of coping with the large numbers involved. This was made worse by the fact that the operational order and police tactics did not consider the possibility of a large concentration of late arrivals. This situation, according to Taylor, was made worse by a drunken minority and the club's confused and inadequate signs and ticketing.

 

[Bwian]

Why an idiot because I don't think the same way as you? You can't lay all the blame for what happened that day on the police. Sorry you don't like that opinion but it's mine! And I didn't say they were drunk, don't put words in my mouth so to speak.

You know more than 2 massively public inquiries do you? More than 400,000 documents saying otherwise? Sorry for doubting for you. Clearly you should have been invited to show Taylor where he went wrong.

 

[El Presidente]

But when the people in front of you aren't moving, you don't just keep shoving them forward repeatedly?

If the people behind are pushing, you don't have a choice, and when there is no control/stewarding/policing, and the match has already kicked off, then those at the back don't know any better.

 

[cyrilthesinik]

The big difference between you and ROSM and myself is that we actually have looked into what happened, whereas you appear to want to see Liverpool supporters blamed despite all evidence to the contrary. Instead of trying to look clever, try being clever, go and do some research then come back with some 'evidence' that 2 inquiries missed.

Who says everything you read is correct? Who says all that you see is exactly as it seems? Why do we always have to blame someone for something when we had a hand it what happened? Who says the latest inquiry didn't have it's own agenda. Sorry i'm a cynic by nature these days.

 

[Mellotron]

"was made worse by a drunken minority". Now it makes more sense.

 

[Billy the Fish]

You are an idiot. The Liverpool fan were not responsible-2 inquiries have proven that. Are you totally f***ing stupid? Don't bother answering-by virtue of your 'understanding Utd fans singing it' your opinions are nul and void. Read the reports. The f***ing gates were opened into a part of the ground that was already full. Arrived late? Yes, there were problems on the M62-they weren't all down the pub getting pissed.

In the past there have been some really good threads on crowd control and group mentality and what happens when a crowd panics, I think by Hampshire Seagulls (haven't seen him post in ages) By opening the gates that crowd was always going to run into that pen, you can't blame the supporters for that and it was ultimately what lead to the crush.

What I find unpalettable is the undertone of the argument from the scousers that they were ALL well behaved little cherubs and NONE of them were pissed. That is total nonsense, it was football in the 80s and it was an FA cup semi final, am I really supposed to believe that they weren't getting pissed up on the coaches, and am I really supposed to believe that they weren't pushing to try and get in on time.

I'm not blaming them for what happened, but I can see for myself that the jft96 also likes to trott out some propagander of it's own and I find that a bit hypocritical.

*edit* Although that snippet from El Presidente has pretty much cleared that up

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But when the people in front of you aren't moving, you don't just keep shoving them forward repeatedly?

When the crash barrier collapsed, people fell forward which then causes more people to fall over like a pack of cards.

 

[Questions]

ermm.........Honestly? I think that Hillsborough was a tragedy, and the press and S Yorks Police, amongst others, let the families down. And I believe that justice SHOULD be done for the people that never came home that day.....

but I think the implications of what happened that day have changed football, and not all for the better. A lot of things that happened that day, could have been avoided, and as such, weren't as "unsafe" as people suggest (Terraces for instance)

It just happened to be Hillsborough but it could have been any number of matches that I have attended and indeed the countless stories on this site last week clearly indicated that it was going to happen sooner or later. The authorities would not listen,they knew best. With the help of the police they were going to kill a large group of people sooner or later.......

So I say all seater stadiums are here to stay. They are safer. I have never taken my kids to a match where I feared for their safety and I never would.

 

[Worthingite]

I might be missing something, but aren't perhaps the FA and LFC culpable in some way, with the way the tickets were sold? I would imagine it was an all ticket affair, given it being an FA Cup Semi, so surely those two bodies should have taken into account the amount of people that can safely fit into a given area, so selling more than that would have been some part of the cause?

I'm genuinely interested, and not having a pop at either the FA or LFC.

 

[El Presidente]

Why do we always have to blame someone for something when we had a hand it what happened?

Are you implying it was caused by Lord Justice Taylor, who wrote the original report then?

 

[Blackadder]

Why an idiot because I don't think the same way as you? You can't lay all the blame for what happened that day on the police. Sorry you don't like that opinion but it's mine! And I didn't say they were drunk, don't put words in my mouth so to speak.

Cyril.

You do know why the PM, The Sun, South Yorkshire police, etc apologised unreservedly this week don't you?

 

[Mellotron]

If the people behind are pushing, you don't have a choice, and when there is no control/stewarding/policing, and the match has already kicked off, then those at the back don't know any better.

"don't know any better"? Say you were in the queue for the WSU bogs. You hear the whistle go for the start of an important game, but you can't see what's at the other end of the queue because it goes round the corner. Do you:

A) Start pushing the people in front of you forward

Or

B) Wait.

But then answer the same questions as a "drunken minority".

 

[drew]

I was listening to a phone in when a scouser was moaning about this, saying just because it's United they get away with it. Although I dont condone the chanting in any way, he conveniently didnt mention the Munich chanting therefore not really giving a balanced argument. Just kinda kept saying its always Man Utd fans that ruin things.

When ever do you get a balanced view from a Liverpool fan!

Your accusations are absurd. There is ZERO evidence to support it.

The gates were opened and people were funnelled into a terrace area that was already full, it was a negligent decision made by the police, and not helped by staging a match at a ground that did not deserve a safety certificate, had too few turnstiles, (which contributed to the fans backing up outside the ground) and next to no stewarding.

A government who thought that fans were animals and should be caged like them also have to take some responsibility too.

The two factors that probably created and exacerbated the tragedy were the decisions of the Police who, in dealing with one desperate situation, created and even worse one and then the presence of the fencing and pens. The reason we had fencing at football was because over the previous two decades a minority of fans decided that it was ok to act like morons and use terraces as their own fight club. Liverpool fans over that period were no angels but had it not been Liverpool fans that suffered, it would have been another clubs fans that died.

As for SWFC, they have culpability but I wonder how many other clubs around the country at the time didn't have up to date safety certificates. I believe Bradford didn't have one at the time of the fire and I can't believe the only two clubs to suffer major casualties in the 80s were the only two without a cert. Plenty of grounds at that time were quite dilapidated, especially in the lower leagues where money was tight (and still is). There was a culture that was not condusive to the safety of football's customers.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I might be missing something, but aren't perhaps the FA and LFC culpable in some way, with the way the tickets were sold? I would imagine it was an all ticket affair, given it being an FA Cup Semi, so surely those two bodies should have taken into account the amount of people that can safely fit into a given area, so selling more than that would have been some part of the cause?

I'm genuinely interested, and not having a pop at either the FA or LFC.

The Taylor report shows that the number of fans in the Leppings Lane end were less than the capacity but they were herded into the central section (C) whilst the two wing sections were practically empty. There were bars between the sections of Liverpool fans to the side of them as well as at the front.

 

[bristolseagull]

One thing I'm slightly confused by, and I apologise if I've missed something and am being incredibly naive - but what caused the crushing?

As in, if you see if there is no space in front of you...you stand still. Not just push into the people in front of you? Were the Police forcing people to squeeze in tighter where there was no room? And when they could see this was causing serious overcrowding issues, what then happened?

have you only ever watched football from a seat?

 

[Mellotron]

When the crash barrier collapsed, people fell forward which then causes more people to fall over like a pack of cards.

Fair point, understood. Why did it get to a point where a crash barrier collapsed, without people pushing unnecessarily? The report mentions a drunken minority who made it worse.

 

[El Presidente]

[/B]

It just happened to be Hillsborough but it could have been any number of matches that I have attended and indeed the countless stories on this site last week clearly indicated that it was going to happen sooner or later. The authorities would not listen,they knew best. With the help of the police they were going to kill a large group of people sooner or later.......

So I say all seater stadiums are here to stay. They are safer. I have never taken my kids to a match where I feared for their safety and I never would.

I agree with you on the first issue Q, it was a lottery on the terraces at some matches in those days.

There is no evidence today, with modern engineering, tighter ticket control, better stewarding, and most importantly NO FENCES, that another Hillsborough could arise in the UK.

 

[cyrilthesinik]

You know more than 2 massively public inquiries do you? More than 400,000 documents saying otherwise? Sorry for doubting for you. Clearly you should have been invited to show Taylor where he went wrong.

You like putting words in my mouth don't you! Where did I say I knew all the facts...do you? Everything....? If you do then sorry..you must be God! Like I have said sorry I don't see it your way. Unlike you I respect your opinion...which one of us is the true idiot?

 

[wellquickwoody]

The big difference between you and ROSM and myself is that we actually have looked into what happened, whereas you appear to want to see Liverpool supporters blamed despite all evidence to the contrary. Instead of trying to look clever, try being clever, go and do some research then come back with some 'evidence' that 2 inquiries missed.

These are sensible questions Bwian, (feel free to answer via PM), how old are you, where are you from, what is your team of choice (now and 30 years ago), would you be a terrace or seats man given the choice (now and then) ?

 

[Mellotron]

have you only ever watched football from a seat?

Nope, was in the terraces as a kid. Confused what your point is. I never just push the person in front of me forward. The Report mentions a drunken minority who made the situation worse.