'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far?

[El Presidente]

The finest away fans, I have seen, were FCUM. Just having a good time, enjoying themselves without feeling the need to try and insult someone.

According to police intelligence they were 'Cat C' opposition though.

Probably the police intelligence came from the South Yorkshire force though......

 

[Billy the Fish]

Personally, I find all this loathing bloody tedious.

Rivalry is great and a potentially energising, motivating ingredient in football - but I personally think it is mostly wasted when the energy is expended on attendance threads, toe-curling 'Stand Up If You Hate Palace' chants, 'Are you obsessed with us?' threads, Munich and Hillsborough chants, 'No Surrender to the IRA' crap etc.

How would you suggest a rivalry should manifest itself then? You are contradicting yourself.

It has to be close to the bone to make it real, I would even go as far to say that once fighting at football is totaly eradicated - and it will be in a few years - that rivalries will disappear. All the proper rivalries in football are born of a genuine tribal hatred of each other, in the future when it's simply people arguing on internet message boards everyone will realise that it's a waste of time unless you REALLY mean it.

 

[El Presidente]

I can see why they sang it. Sorry but we are all now being told it was all the polices fault! Come on, the real truth is somewhere in the middle of the first enquiry and the latest released files. The police where to blame but so where the fans who turned up late and expected to be let in in time for kick off. A very sad story all round, but in a way I can understand the Utd fans singing it. There are Liverpool fans today that know deep down they played their part in those deaths just the same as there are Police officers alive that know they failed that day.

Your accusations are absurd. There is ZERO evidence to support it.

The gates were opened and people were funnelled into a terrace area that was already full, it was a negligent decision made by the police, and not helped by staging a match at a ground that did not deserve a safety certificate, had too few turnstiles, (which contributed to the fans backing up outside the ground) and next to no stewarding.

A government who thought that fans were animals and should be caged like them also have to take some responsibility too.

 

[Bwian]

I can see why they sang it. Sorry but we are all now being told it was all the polices fault! Come on, the real truth is somewhere in the middle of the first enquiry and the latest released files. The police where to blame but so where the fans who turned up late and expected to be let in in time for kick off. A very sad story all round, but in a way I can understand the Utd fans singing it. There are Liverpool fans today that know deep down they played their part in those deaths just the same as there are Police officers alive that know they failed that day.

You are an idiot. The Liverpool fan were not responsible-2 inquiries have proven that. Are you totally f***ing stupid? Don't bother answering-by virtue of your 'understanding Utd fans singing it' your opinions are nul and void. Read the reports. The f***ing gates were opened into a part of the ground that was already full. Arrived late? Yes, there were problems on the M62-they weren't all down the pub getting pissed.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Re: 'Always the victim, never to blame', a chant too far?

You mean playing the victim for the last 23 years when all they were doing was looking for the truth to come out about being totally f***ing stitched up by S Yorks Police, The Scum and numerous Tory politicians?

Yes, you're right, they really played the victim didn't they?

Aahh, Bwian.......

Wondered when you would pop up, still waiting for ROSM to join in.

I am quite comfortable with my opinions, but earlier this week I got argued down. OK, fair enough etc etc, so I chose to keep a low profile.

Maybe less liberal whinging types than you are beginning to raise their voices. I, and many others, never accused the 96 victims of drunkeness or hooliganism, we pointed the finger at those still trying to climb the walls outside of Hillsborough, as shown on BBC news this week.

Sorry Bwian, but the truth lies midway between the two inquiries, as I believe history will show.

 

[8ace]

Can't believe anyone hasn't thought to sing a song to that tune before

 

[El Presidente]

How would you suggest a rivalry should manifest itself then? You are contradicting yourself.

It has to be close to the bone to make it real, I would even go as far to say that once fighting at football is totaly eradicated - and it will be in a few years - that rivalries will disappear. All the proper rivalries in football are born of a genuine tribal hatred of each other, in the future when it's simply people arguing on internet message boards everyone will realise that it's a waste of time unless you REALLY mean it.

Surely you mean really mean it for 90 minutes though? Football hatred is not real, it's not as if Palace fans are members of a terrorist organisation or are promoting genocide, paedophilia and Morris dancing? We chant obscenities with people who we might be working with the following Monday and happily have a cup of tea with them at lunch.

 

[El Presidente]

ermm.........Honestly? I think that Hillsborough was a tragedy, and the press and S Yorks Police, amongst others, let the families down. And I believe that justice SHOULD be done for the people that never came home that day.....

That said, I kind of resent the looming spectre of the Hillsborough disaster that hangs over football in general. Any change to the way LFC is run, or any change in stance to anything like Safe Standing, Policing at grounds etc, ALWAYS WITHOUT FAIL has somebody from the JF96 campaign being quoted on it. So yeah, I do believe - to an extent - that Hillsborough is "milked" (for want of a better word) by a large proportion of Liverpool fans - mainly, it has to be said, by a lot of LFC fans that were not there that day. I know this probably isn't going to be popular on here, I can TOTALLY understand WHY Hillsborough is mentioned so much, but I think the implications of what happened that day have changed football, and not all for the better. A lot of things that happened that day, could have been avoided, and as such, weren't as "unsafe" as people suggest (Terraces for instance)

I agree with you entirely about the Safe Standing issue, and I think that a lot of Liverpool fans are with you too on that.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Aahh, Bwian.......

Wondered when you would pop up, still waiting for ROSM to join in.

I am quite comfortable with my opinions, but earlier this week I got argued down. OK, fair enough etc etc, so I chose to keep a low profile.

Maybe less liberal whinging types than you are beginning to raise their voices. I, and many others, never accused the 96 victims of drunkeness or hooliganism, we pointed the finger at those still trying to climb the walls outside of Hillsborough, as shown on BBC news this week.

Sorry Bwian, but the truth lies midway between the two inquiries, as I believe history will show.

Neither inquiry blamed the fans.

 

[Bwian]

Aahh, Bwian.......

Wondered when you would pop up, still waiting for ROSM to join in.

I am quite comfortable with my opinions, but earlier this week I got argued down. OK, fair enough etc etc, so I chose to keep a low profile.

Maybe less liberal whinging types than you are beginning to raise their voices. I, and many others, never accused the 96 victims of drunkeness or hooliganism, we pointed the finger at those still trying to climb the walls outside of Hillsborough, as shown on BBC news this week.

Sorry Bwian, but the truth lies midway between the two inquiries, as I believe history will show.

Why were they climbing the walls? Because they were already being crushed-which is why the gates were opened by S Yorks Police. As much as you like to try and point the blame at Liverpool fans, anybody with half a brain will be able to counter any stupid 'theories'. 400,000 documents and admissions of false evidence and lies by all former accusers suggest your 'beliefs' are unfounded.

 

[Worthingite]

I agree with you entirely about the Safe Standing issue, and I think that a lot of Liverpool fans are with you too on that.

I thought I was going to get thoroughly binfested for posting that!!!!

What got my goat more than anything was when the new Liverpool kit came out, a group "claiming" to be from JF96 (they weren't), kicked off about the memorial badge being removed for the old badge - despite having JF96 stitched quite clearly into the back of the shirt. Kind of went too far in my opinion.

 

[cyrilthesinik]

You are an idiot. The Liverpool fan were not responsible-2 inquiries have proven that. Are you totally f***ing stupid? Don't bother answering-by virtue of your 'understanding Utd fans singing it' your opinions are nul and void. Read the reports. The f***ing gates were opened into a part of the ground that was already full. Arrived late? Yes, there were problems on the M62-they weren't all down the pub getting pissed.

Why an idiot because I don't think the same way as you? You can't lay all the blame for what happened that day on the police. Sorry you don't like that opinion but it's mine! And I didn't say they were drunk, don't put words in my mouth so to speak.

 

[Mellotron]

One thing I'm slightly confused by, and I apologise if I've missed something and am being incredibly naive - but what caused the crushing?

As in, if you see if there is no space in front of you...you stand still. Not just push into the people in front of you? Were the Police forcing people to squeeze in tighter where there was no room? And when they could see this was causing serious overcrowding issues, what then happened?

 

[Bwian]

Aahh, Bwian.......

Wondered when you would pop up, still waiting for ROSM to join in.

The big difference between you and ROSM and myself is that we actually have looked into what happened, whereas you appear to want to see Liverpool supporters blamed despite all evidence to the contrary. Instead of trying to look clever, try being clever, go and do some research then come back with some 'evidence' that 2 inquiries missed.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

One thing I'm slightly confused by, and I apologise if I've missed something and am being incredibly naive - but what caused the crushing?

As in, if you see if there is no space in front of you...you stand still. Not just push into the people in front of you? Were the Police forcing people to squeeze in tighter where there was no room? And when they could see this was causing serious overcrowding issues, what then happened?

Part of the problem is the layout of the lower tier of Leppings Lane, which has a tunnel and causes the crowd to funnel through it without being able to see what is at the other end. There was a similar crush at a German pop concert recently where a tunnel access was used. Matters were made worse by a crash barrier collapsing causing people to fall forward.

 

[pottert]

For how many years have Liverpool fans sang songs about the Munich plane crash.

Surely what goes around comes around

 

[El Presidente]

You can't lay all the blame for what happened that day on the police. Sorry you don't like that opinion but it's mine!

He didn't blame it all on the police, a four hundred page report, which analysed over 400,000 pieces of evidence, blamed it on the police, and reinforced what the Taylor Report concluded in 1990. The main difference between the report last week and the Taylor report was the confirmation that South Yorkshire Police had doctored evidence.

Your opinion is based on what exactly?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

For how many years have Liverpool fans sang songs about the Munich plane crash.

Surely what goes around comes around

So have Leeds fans. When do they get theirs?

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Tribal rivalry is dying a death globally. Even the most backward nations have finally caught up.

I am sure we are capable of mocking our rivals without the need to offend and draw blood, surely?

The current rivalry with Palace is tiresome. The only evidence is the verbal Mexican wave "Stand up if you hate Palace...". I'd rather lose it all together and have fun amongst ourselves than listen to that dirge.

 

[Mellotron]

Part of the problem is the layout of the lower tier of Leppings Lane, which has a tunnel and causes the crowd to funnel through it without being able to see what is at the other end. There was a similar crush at a German pop concert recently where a tunnel access was used. Matters were made worse by a crash barrier collapsing causing people to fall forward.

But when the people in front of you aren't moving, you don't just keep shoving them forward repeatedly?