'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far?

[RowleyBirkinQ.C(deceased)]

I've been in many scary crush situations, Albion games to the Palio horse race in Italy to closed tube stations to stadium gigs. In each situation the common denominator is the crowd is obviously constructed by many groups of people men, women, old, young, drunk or sober. And in each situation the crowds nearly always act in a similar way, there is pushing surging and crushes, people don't want this situation it's just the momentum of the crowd.
But what does differ in all the cases is how it's policed and stewarded or to put another way if it's policed correctly people feel safe and situation is under control, of the crowd isn't managed, people feel scared and threatened and the situation gets out of control.
In all ares, hillsborough wasnt policed properly, when panic set in, it wasnt managed properly and when people were dying it still wasn't managed properly. Some people still love to hang onto the "drunken minority" part of the report to beat the scousers with BUT and to repeat it again, in nearly all crowds I've ever been in there is a "drunken minority" and there has never been a fatality, it's just how the crowd is managed.
As for the chanting, I love a bit of banter between fans but when different groups of fans glory in the deaths of their opponents then sorry but that's just bollocks. It's not the sterilisation of the terraces it's plain decency

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Back on topic, I'm sure if 96 Albion fans died in an identical crushing at the FA Cup Semi-Final in 1983, a game that was a momentous day for the club, and Palace fans chanted about Albion fans being 'always the victim, never their fault', I'm sure we'd consider it beyond the pale and any condemnation NOT "Dianafication* of hand wringers who think they know what is 'best' for the game" Nor would we consider it as necessity of football rivalry for Palace fans to chant it. Nor would we be arguing the toss about any of the secondary factors being discussed in this thread as being as impactful as the actions and lack of leadership of the Police.






















* OK, let's pretend Diana died fifteen years before she did. Bear with me!

 

[El Presidente]

Back on topic, I'm sure if 96 Albion fans died in an identical crushing at the FA Cup Semi-Final in 1983, a game that was a momentous day for the club, and Palace fans chanted about Albion fans being 'always the victim, never their fault', I'm sure we'd consider it beyond the pale and any condemnation NOT "Dianafication* of hand wringers who think they know what is 'best' for the game" Nor would we consider it as necessity of football rivalry for Palace fans to chant it. Nor would we be arguing the toss about any of the secondary factors being discussed in this thread as being as impactful as the actions and lack of leadership of the Police.






















* OK, let's pretend Diana died fifteen years before she did. Bear with me!

Fair enough, but the chant was not about Hillsborough. So does mean that Palace fans should not sing ANY anti-Albion songs under those circumstances, and similarly if there had been a tragedy relating to Palace does that mean we should not sing Anti-Palace songs?

 

[Spider]

Fair enough, but the chant was not about Hillsborough. So does mean that Palace fans should not sing ANY anti-Albion songs under those circumstances, and similarly if there had been a tragedy relating to Palace does that mean we should not sing Anti-Palace songs?

Do you really believe it wasn't, at least in some way, about Hillsborough? It might refer to Liverpool FC more generally, but I can't believe there wasn't also an element of opportunism in singing it this weekend of any.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I haven't commented on any recent thread regarding Hillsborough but for what it worth this is my view.

Though there's been two inquiries and now the release of the "truth" there is another view that some on here have mentioned.

If you look at the whole as opposed to parts of the incident, the football supporter mentality prevailing at the time, the social attitude prevalent in the country, policing of large events, condition of stadiums, wealth of clubs, the "value" of the supporter to the game and the governance of the country.

All of these have a relative bearing on the death of these men, women and children.

Taking each, singularly.

The supporter mentality- unfortunately dominated by the minority hell bent on rival-ism, hooliganism but also an acceptance by the majority to treated by the authorities as second calls citizens.

The social attitude- the tarring of all supporters with the same brush thus allowing the authorities to take a draconian stance against all supporters in equal measure.

Policing of events- all of us following football at the time were used to this type of policing. The majority of this was breathtakingly inept but we didn't have a voice due to the attitude mentioned above.

Stadiums- the vast majority of "suitable" stadiums were outdated, in hard to police areas, and frankly unfit for purpose. Even the smaller ones like the Goldstone that held the occasional full house, on reflection were death traps. We as the fans also had very low expectations of the facilities.

Wealth of clubs- not only had the "Sky" money not hit the top clubs by this time but very few clubs saw the need to update their stadiums or could not justify the expense.

Value of the supporter- goes in hand with the 2 above, we didn't expect much, and the clubs didn't understand the concept.

Governance- with the social problems within the country at the time, football trouble was almost accepted as part and parcel of the times. The authorities acted in a fire fighting way without ever dealing with the cause. This was so counter-productive, treat people like animals, they act like them.

All of these contributed to the events. As mentioned for what ever reasons supporters arrived late, of course some would be heavily intoxicated, some I'm sure ticketless, but the vast majority normal well behaved fans who were unwittingly about to be part of a horrific incident. Decisions that were made during the preceding weeks and in the hours, minutes prior to kick off directly resulted in what we all know next.

What next, is there a need for a completely new inquiry into the incident? I'm not so sure. Though facts have been hidden, the result of the other inquiries and what has happened since within the game, along with the attitude towards football, leads me to believe no such incident would happen again within the game. Inquiries are normally instigated to learn from the facts, and to ensure that to the best of all concerned that systems are put in place to limit the likelihood of an similar incident occurring again. I would though hope that a full investigation takes place into the doctoring of statements and the unbelievable fact that there wasn't a safety certificate for the stadium. For someone who has been a health and safety manager I really find that more shocking then the police cover-up. The police cover-up is exactly no more than I would anticipate.

In summary, there for the grace go many of us. Looking back to the 70's/80's I can remember being present at many games where as a youngster being slowly crushed at the front of the terrace. One that still sticks in my mind was the Derby cup game, standing in the south stand and literally being unable to move or breath, frightening. My brother nearly being trampled on at Highbury when Case scored in the semi, only being saved by a very quick thinking chap standing next to him as he went down. The hidden attendances. My friend, a scoucer, tells me of his youth where he never missed a home game at Anfield, standing in the Kop but never having pay for the privilege. The turnstile attendant offering his own 2 for 1.

Thank God we've moved on!

 

[El Presidente]

Do you really believe it wasn't, at least in some way, about Hillsborough? It might refer to Liverpool FC more generally, but I can't believe there wasn't also an element of opportunism in singing it this weekend of any.

Amongst some.? Yes. Just as some here still prefer to believe South Yorkshire's Finest's version of events, rather than the evidence of the reports.

But there were no specific Hillsborough chants, if Liverpool fans want to read more into things than was what actually said then it's their choice. Just as it is their choice to defend Suarez's comments as being totally benign.

 

[Spider]

Amongst some.? Yes. Just as some here still prefer to believe South Yorkshire's Finest's version of events, rather than the evidence of the reports.

But there were no specific Hillsborough chants, if Liverpool fans want to read more into things than was what actually said then it's their choice. Just as it is their choice to defend Suarez's comments as being totally benign.

Fair enough, but you said the chant 'wasn't about Hillsborough', denying any room for interpretation. I think we're both long enough in the tooth to know that, when it comes to football chants, there was some malicious intent involved.

That said, I can't get too worked up about it. If anything now that the files have been released it should be viewed as childish banter, since any relation it could have to Hillsborough has been disproved. As is the way with Liverpool, however, in a case of living up to the chant they will probably get very offended by it.

 

[brakespear]

Amongst some.? Yes. Just as some here still prefer to believe South Yorkshire's Finest's version of events, rather than the evidence of the reports.

But there were no specific Hillsborough chants, if Liverpool fans want to read more into things than was what actually said then it's their choice. Just as it is their choice to defend Suarez's comments as being totally benign.

Oh please.....chants such as this in the week that has just occurred are only meant to target one point and imo anyone who wants to believe other than that is trying to start an argument on the internet What the Suarez affair (though entirely distasteful as it was) has in relation to this is beyond me.

 

[trueblue]

Maybe the diagram is too basic, but why didn't fans go to the other two pens? .

Well, for one thing, if you just arrived at an FA Cup semi-final and you couldn't see into the ground and the central section was still open, where would you go? Most football fans would make a beeline to be behind the goal – that's human nature. I seem to remember (although I haven't read the report this time around), that Liverpool went close to scoring just as the mass of people arrived inside the ground. Obviously, that made the situation worse as people were trying to get into the ground quickly when they heard the crowd noise, to see what was happening. That doesn't mean they were pushing unreasonably. People who can't understand how that crush could develop, really can't ever have been in a big, tightly packed crowd. It doesn't take people being unruly for those at the front to get squashed.

 

[El Presidente]

Oh please.....chants such as this in the week that has just occurred are only meant to target one point and imo anyone who wants to believe other than that is trying to start an argument on the internet What the Suarez affair (though entirely distasteful as it was) has in relation to this is beyond me.

It's not just this week, such chants are sung every week at OT. Not by many, as too many of the fans are trying to work out where David Beckham is on the pitch.

 

[Northstander]

Tribal rivalry is dying a death globally. Even the most backward nations have finally caught up.

I am sure we are capable of mocking our rivals without the need to offend and draw blood, surely?

The current rivalry with Palace is tiresome. The only evidence is the verbal Mexican wave "Stand up if you hate Palace...". I'd rather lose it all together and have fun amongst ourselves than listen to that dirge.

This

If you asked fans for example: why do you hate palace other than them being nearest club to Albion, what do we think the answer would be? I would wager younger fans of brighton, Leeds, united or Liverpool have not got a clue other than that's how it is?

 

[Hamilton]

These are sensible questions Bwian, (feel free to answer via PM), how old are you, where are you from, what is your team of choice (now and 30 years ago), would you be a terrace or seats man given the choice (now and then) ?

You asked for the answers...

I'm 44
I'm from Brighton
Brighton then and Brighton now
Terrace then. Seats now.

What these answers don't tell you.

At the time of Hillsborough I was a student in Yorkshire. I lived with a bunch of Liverpool supporters and used to travel across the Pennines to stand on the Kop. I used to buy terrace seats because they were cheap. Standing on terraces was dangerous and exciting, but I was young. Young people do dangerous and exciting things, but it doesn't mean we should condone them.

When I used to return south and stand at the Goldstone it was a hell of a lot safer (thanks mainly to Barry Lloyd with a few exceptions.)

The same comditions were true when I went to Elland Road at that time and to Maine Road.

Could safe standing be introduced now in ways similar to that employed in the Bundesliga? Very possibly. But in such a case we are not comparing apples and apples. If anyone thinks we are then they are under 30 years old.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

The problem is that the chantl will be regarded by many as (in general) fair. There is a school of thought that regards Scousers as mawkishly sentimental and emotionally incontinent. However it most definitely doesn't apply to Hillsborough.

 

[El Presidente]

The problem is that the chantl will be regarded by many as (in general) fair. There is a school of thought that regards Scousers as mawkishly sentimental and emotionally incontinent. However it most definitely doesn't apply to Hillsborough.

True, I worked in Liverpool for years, and found the locals to be extremely knowledgeable about football, funny, fair and pretty decent. But there are a few of them who have a 'look at me I've had in so tough' mentality.

Anyone who went to Anfield or Goodison in the early 80's when the Albion were in the top flight would have found it a pretty scary place, although when we beat them in the cup most were decent about it, though I suspect would not have been so had the Melia and Jimmy Case connection not been in existence.

 

[BadFish]

Why an idiot because I don't think the same way as you? You can't lay all the blame for what happened that day on the police. Sorry you don't like that opinion but it's mine! And I didn't say they were drunk, don't put words in my mouth so to speak.

Your opinion is worthless and absurd when it contradicts TWO full scale inquiries into the tragedy.

 

[BadFish]

True, I worked in Liverpool for years, and found the locals to be extremely knowledgeable about football, funny, fair and pretty decent. But there are a few of them who have a 'look at me I've had in so tough' mentality.

You mean just like any other residents of any other town in the world then?

 

[El Presidente]

You mean just like any other residents of any other town in the world then?

Yup.

Except Brighton obviously

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Personally, I find all this loathing bloody tedious.

Rivalry is great and a potentially energising, motivating ingredient in football - but I personally think it is mostly wasted when the energy is expended on attendance threads, toe-curling 'Stand Up If You Hate Palace' chants, 'Are you obsessed with us?' threads, Munich and Hillsborough chants, 'No Surrender to the IRA' crap etc.

This is true.

However in response to the op I think that the chanting yesterday did have everything to do with Hillsborough - although it would have happened regardless. Taunts about tragedies (Ibrox, Munich, Heysel, Bradford, Hillsborough etc) are the most tasteless and embarrassing of all, and unwarrarented.

If anything they are worse than racism (both are abhorrent) since they are specifically targetting and attacking the relatives and survivors of a disaster.

 

[El Presidente]

This is true.

However in response to the op I think that the chanting yesterday did have everything to do with Hillsborough - although it would have happened regardless. Taunts about tragedies (Ibrox, Munich, Heysel, Bradford, Hillsborough etc) are the most tasteless and embarrassing of all, and unwarrarented.

If anything they are worse than racism (both are abhorrent) since they are specifically targetting and attacking the relatives and survivors of a disaster.

Have there ever been taunts about Bradford?

 

[Simster]

The problem is that the chantl will be regarded by many as (in general) fair. There is a school of thought that regards Scousers as mawkishly sentimental and emotionally incontinent. However it most definitely doesn't apply to Hillsborough.

Spot on.

What I don't get are these people so insistent on making the supporters take "their share of the blame". There is absolutely no blame to be attached. Some fans had drunk a bit? Hardly unexpected in terms of controlling a football crowd, was it? Some people had no tickets? So why wasn't there a police corden 200 yards up the road which prohibited ticketless scousers from getting near the ground? These are absolute BASICS in terms of crowd control.

And throw in the fact we had seen the warnings in 1981 where gates WERE opened, and there were better procedures in place the year before for exactly the same fixture which were seemingly abandoned, and the fact that the police doctored 116 witness statements to make themselves look less incompetent, and it really ought to be clear for all to see where the fault lies. It lies with the people PAID to control and look after the crowds, and NOT the ones there for a day out.


As for the United fans chant, it isn't a chant too far. That victim mentality sits comfortable with the scousers. However, the timing of that chant on Saturday was f***ing appallingly insensitive to the memory of 96 people who lost their lives because they were there to watch the football.