'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far?

[Cheshire Cat]

Have there ever been taunts about Bradford?

No idea (it was only an example) - wouldn't be surprised if there have been by someone though, especially in a derby game. I do recall there were the usual sick "jokes" around at the time, but fortunately I don't remember the actual content.

 

[W.C.]

What I don't get are these people so insistent on making the supporters take "their share of the blame". There is absolutely no blame to be attached.

Some people seem to think 'having an opinion' is more important than facts. Can't understand it myself.

 

[Acker79]

Well, for one thing, if you just arrived at an FA Cup semi-final and you couldn't see into the ground and the central section was still open, where would you go? Most football fans would make a beeline to be behind the goal – that's human nature. I seem to remember (although I haven't read the report this time around), that Liverpool went close to scoring just as the mass of people arrived inside the ground. Obviously, that made the situation worse as people were trying to get into the ground quickly when they heard the crowd noise, to see what was happening. That doesn't mean they were pushing unreasonably.

I'm not saying they are being unreasonable, just trying to get a full understanding of all the events that day.

If I'm late in to the ground a) I'm assuming the prime spots are already taken (especially if I can see a rush of people ahead trying to get in the entrance to the main section I'm assuming would be already busy/full, b) if I'm missing the action I'm going in the nearest entrance, and looking at that diagram the first pen is closest to gate C.

But like I said, I'm still reading the report, and maybe that will have a better explanation.

 

[Simster]

Some people seem to think 'having an opinion' is more important than facts. Can't understand it myself.

So it would seem. That cyril muppet and wellslowwoody really are embarrassing themselves.

 

[El Presidente]

Some people seem to think 'having an opinion' is more important than facts. Can't understand it myself.

Conspiracy theorists hate pesky facts. They feel very slighted that they are not 'allowed' an opinion on the likes of Hillsborough. No one is denying them an opinion, but if the opinion is devoid of factual accuracy and evidence, then they are likely to be subject to some criticism.

There are some (including people on NSC), who deny the Nazi Holocaust. None of them have visited Belsen or Auschwitz, read the reports on what happened, but they somehow convince themselves that their thoughts override all the contradictory evidence.

It's the same with religion too........... (opens can of worms).

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm not saying they are being unreasonable, just trying to get a full understanding of all the events that day.

If I'm late in to the ground a) I'm assuming the prime spots are already taken (especially if I can see a rush of people ahead trying to get in the entrance to the main section I'm assuming would be already busy/full, b) if I'm missing the action I'm going in the nearest entrance, and looking at that diagram the first pen is closest to gate C.

But like I said, I'm still reading the report, and maybe that will have a better explanation.

Have you been to Hillsborough to a match? I'm not being funny but when you've been there, you can see how easily a crush could happen, and also how the police and stewards could have managed the crowds so much easier. Even now, I feel uncomfortable when I know we've got the lower tier rather than the upper tier.
Tomorrow evening is a case in point, the concourse at Watford is extremely narrow and uncomfortable when there is a crowd. I dread to think what would happen if there was an emergency there.

 

[El Presidente]

I'm not saying they are being unreasonable, just trying to get a full understanding of all the events that day.

If I'm late in to the ground a) I'm assuming the prime spots are already taken (especially if I can see a rush of people ahead trying to get in the entrance to the main section I'm assuming would be already busy/full, b) if I'm missing the action I'm going in the nearest entrance, and looking at that diagram the first pen is closest to gate C.

But like I said, I'm still reading the report, and maybe that will have a better explanation.

I read somewhere in the report that there was a one in six gradient going down the tunnel to the pens, if so it would be very difficult to stop the weight of the force behind you.

 

[Acker79]

Like the "you know what you are" chants towards Anton Ferdinand, this was most definitely a chant about Hillsborough, without being overtly about Hillsborough.

 

[The Large One]

So it would seem. That cyril muppet and wellslowwoody really are embarrassing themselves.

It's bizarre, isn't it?

Two (of probably many) who have zero interest in the findings because it contradicts their prejudices and ignorance. There could be 50 inquiries, and they'd still only believe their own fantasies - 'because I'm allowed an opinion too' etc. There is no point in having a debate with them, because neither will read the reports, neither will understand what happened because neither wants to.

On that basis, their opinion is irrelevant.

 

[Acker79]

I read somewhere in the report that there was a one in six gradient going down the tunnel to the pens, if so it would be very difficult to stop the weight of the force behind you.

The diagram you linked suggests the gate was kinda to the side

The gate is the fence section from the bottom turnstiles. That would open up near the bottom end of the stand, and is far away from the tunnel. Looking at that diagram, the tunnel is the furthest entrance from Gate C. A 1:6 gradient doesn't sound like it would be impossible to see the entrance of the tunnel from the top of the slope (which from other responses, suggest was also crowded), and avoid starting to walk down.

Like I say, the diagram is really basic and maybe it would be clearer if I saw the actual ground as it was then. Looking at the diagram, perhaps the gate was only opened so far, and in not pushing it all the way open the gate restricted access down the side of the bottom end, or blocked a path to earlier entrance forcing people down the slope.

 

[Aadam]

Do you really believe it wasn't, at least in some way, about Hillsborough? It might refer to Liverpool FC more generally, but I can't believe there wasn't also an element of opportunism in singing it this weekend of any.

Oh please.....chants such as this in the week that has just occurred are only meant to target one point and imo anyone who wants to believe other than that is trying to start an argument on the internet What the Suarez affair (though entirely distasteful as it was) has in relation to this is beyond me.

Firstly, the chants originated following the Suarez/Evra affair. Liverpool bemoaning a victimisation of them for the Ban Suarez received for racially abusing Evra. Stating that they're always hard done by. Secondly, it was sung by a very select few, for a short period of time. Amongst this song, other songs about hating Leeds and Man City were sung, that have always been sung. No song that I'm aware of was specific to Hillsborough, it was a song sang at their rivals, as happens at every game.

Do I think the songs should have been sung so soon after the papers were released? Maybe not, but it was not specific to one tragic event, unlike the Munich songs sang in the opposite direction. Unlike Hillsborough, there's no ongoing inquest or fight for justice with the Munich disaster. This Sunday, United play Liverpool at Anfield. I will be amazed if there are no songs sang at each other.

 

[Acker79]

Have you been to Hillsborough to a match? I'm not being funny but when you've been there, you can see how easily a crush could happen, and also how the police and stewards could have managed the crowds so much easier. Even now, I feel uncomfortable when I know we've got the lower tier rather than the upper tier.
Tomorrow evening is a case in point, the concourse at Watford is extremely narrow and uncomfortable when there is a crowd. I dread to think what would happen if there was an emergency there.

No, I haven't, as I've said I'm basing my questions on the diagram, and as I've just mentioned perhaps it would be clearer if I saw either a much more detailed diagram or actual photos/video of the ground as it was to understand what access was like at the time.

Any way, a few things to do and catch up on, but I shall get back to reading the taylor report this afternoon.

 

[El Presidente]

No, I haven't, as I've said I'm basing my questions on the diagram, and as I've just mentioned perhaps it would be clearer if I saw either a much more detailed diagram or actual photos/video of the ground as it was to understand what access was like at the time.

Any way, a few things to do and catch up on, but I shall get back to reading the taylor report this afternoon.

We are both probably getting a bit nerdy on this, but if you take a look at the BBC website it has a series of diagrams that explain how the events took place, and summarise it far better than I could hope to do so.

Does the Taylor report also explain why he signed Daniel Webb?

 

[Acker79]

We are both probably getting a bit nerdy on this, but if you take a look at the BBC website it has a series of diagrams that explain how the events took place, and summarise it far better than I could hope to do so.

Does the Taylor report also explain why he signed Daniel Webb?

I did look at the series of diagrams, and I'm none the wiser.

Not yet, but I've only read part 1 chapter 1 - 'Three Sober Lessons after Hillsborough'. Maybe the Webb signing will be covered in the Appendices.

 

[Questions]

The diagram you linked suggests the gate was kinda to the side

The gate is the fence section from the bottom turnstiles. That would open up near the bottom end of the stand, and is far away from the tunnel. Looking at that diagram, the tunnel is the furthest entrance from Gate C. A 1:6 gradient doesn't sound like it would be impossible to see the entrance of the tunnel from the top of the slope (which from other responses, suggest was also crowded), and avoid starting to walk down.

Like I say, the diagram is really basic and maybe it would be clearer if I saw the actual ground as it was then. Looking at the diagram, perhaps the gate was only opened so far, and in not pushing it all the way open the gate restricted access down the side of the bottom end, or blocked a path to earlier entrance forcing people down the slope.

f*** me, why dont you have an enquiry ?

 

[jakarta]

I haven't commented on any recent thread regarding Hillsborough but for what it worth this is my view.

Though there's been two inquiries and now the release of the "truth" there is another view that some on here have mentioned.

If you look at the whole as opposed to parts of the incident, the football supporter mentality prevailing at the time, the social attitude prevalent in the country, policing of large events, condition of stadiums, wealth of clubs, the "value" of the supporter to the game and the governance of the country.

All of these have a relative bearing on the death of these men, women and children.

Taking each, singularly.

The supporter mentality- unfortunately dominated by the minority hell bent on rival-ism, hooliganism but also an acceptance by the majority to treated by the authorities as second calls citizens.

The social attitude- the tarring of all supporters with the same brush thus allowing the authorities to take a draconian stance against all supporters in equal measure.

Policing of events- all of us following football at the time were used to this type of policing. The majority of this was breathtakingly inept but we didn't have a voice due to the attitude mentioned above.

Stadiums- the vast majority of "suitable" stadiums were outdated, in hard to police areas, and frankly unfit for purpose. Even the smaller ones like the Goldstone that held the occasional full house, on reflection were death traps. We as the fans also had very low expectations of the facilities.

Wealth of clubs- not only had the "Sky" money not hit the top clubs by this time but very few clubs saw the need to update their stadiums or could not justify the expense.

Value of the supporter- goes in hand with the 2 above, we didn't expect much, and the clubs didn't understand the concept.

Governance- with the social problems within the country at the time, football trouble was almost accepted as part and parcel of the times. The authorities acted in a fire fighting way without ever dealing with the cause. This was so counter-productive, treat people like animals, they act like them.

All of these contributed to the events. As mentioned for what ever reasons supporters arrived late, of course some would be heavily intoxicated, some I'm sure ticketless, but the vast majority normal well behaved fans who were unwittingly about to be part of a horrific incident. Decisions that were made during the preceding weeks and in the hours, minutes prior to kick off directly resulted in what we all know next.

What next, is there a need for a completely new inquiry into the incident? I'm not so sure. Though facts have been hidden, the result of the other inquiries and what has happened since within the game, along with the attitude towards football, leads me to believe no such incident would happen again within the game. Inquiries are normally instigated to learn from the facts, and to ensure that to the best of all concerned that systems are put in place to limit the likelihood of an similar incident occurring again. I would though hope that a full investigation takes place into the doctoring of statements and the unbelievable fact that there wasn't a safety certificate for the stadium. For someone who has been a health and safety manager I really find that more shocking then the police cover-up. The police cover-up is exactly no more than I would anticipate.

In summary, there for the grace go many of us. Looking back to the 70's/80's I can remember being present at many games where as a youngster being slowly crushed at the front of the terrace. One that still sticks in my mind was the Derby cup game, standing in the south stand and literally being unable to move or breath, frightening. My brother nearly being trampled on at Highbury when Case scored in the semi, only being saved by a very quick thinking chap standing next to him as he went down. The hidden attendances. My friend, a scoucer, tells me of his youth where he never missed a home game at Anfield, standing in the Kop but never having pay for the privilege. The turnstile attendant offering his own 2 for 1.

Thank God we've moved on!

Agree on every point

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Some people seem to think 'having an opinion' is more important than facts. Can't understand it myself.

I can't either - although going by the moronic drivel that the likes of Wellthickwoody & Sid The Simpleton have been coming out with, it's hard not to conclude that they're both pathetically inadequate & should get immediate professional help.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Fascinating to read about the Spurs vs Wolves FA Cup Semi-Final of 1981 at Hillsborough and how an incident identical to that of 1989 was only averted at the very last minute when police allowed Spurs fans to vault over the fences onto the field to prevent a fatal crush occurring.

Those Spurs fans ended up sitting around the edge of the touchlines for the remainder of the game, and there were loads of them.

The FA withdrew the ground from the list of approved S/F venues that summer and it didn't return until some changes had been made in 1987. Unfortunately, the FA did not bother with sufficiently rigorous safety checks before reinstating the venue.

In my mind the FA are much more to blame for the Hillsborough tragedy than they've been credited with, and last week's belated apology was long overdue, not that it means much now.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

No idea (it was only an example) - wouldn't be surprised if there have been by someone though, especially in a derby game. I do recall there were the usual sick "jokes" around at the time, but fortunately I don't remember the actual content.

there were a few songs that Hudderfield fans used to sing, ( as they hate Bradford in the same way as we have rivalry with CP)but it was only the minority and they were told to shut up pretty quickly...I think with the state of the old Leeds Road ground, Bradford was a bit close to home.

 

[The Large One]

Fascinating to read about the Spurs vs Wolves FA Cup Semi-Final of 1981 at Hillsborough and how an incident identical to that of 1989 was only averted at the very last minute when police allowed Spurs fans to vault over the fences onto the field to prevent a fatal crush occurring.

Those Spurs fans ended up sitting around the edge of the touchlines for the remainder of the game, and there were loads of them.

The FA withdrew the ground from the list of approved S/F venues that summer and it didn't return until some changes had been made in 1987. Unfortunately, the FA did not bother with sufficiently rigorous safety checks before reinstating the venue.

In my mind the FA are much more to blame for the Hillsborough tragedy than they've been credited with, and last week's belated apology was long overdue, not that it means much now.

I think the FA AND Sheffield Wednesday have escaped an awful lot of criticism so far.

However, neither blamed the fans in the way the police, The Sun and that odious MP did - and that's what last week's headlines were all about.