'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far?

[cyrilthesinik]

Genuine question - why do you think the review cleared the fans of all blame if that's true? As David Cameron said 'This report is black and white; the fans are not to blame'.

Given what had preceded the report, surely if there was ANY chance that the fans could be blamed, they'd have grabbed it with both hands and apportioned some blame on them in the report?

Because once it was known that the police changed their statements then they were always going to take the blame, just because David Cameron says "Black and white" in my view doesn't make it that. Sorry I just can't see how the police should take all the blame, it's somewhere between the 2 enquiries but now we will never know the whole truth. Also in a earlier post I think someone says the report does mention a small minority of drunk fans making the crush at the turnstiles worse.

 

[cyrilthesinik]

I don't think there's anyone trying to argue that the fans were to blame. I just find it annoying that we're not allowed to acknowledge that some of those fans outside played their part in a chain reaction of events that lead up to the disaster, even if it's a tiny proportion compared to the police incompetence and badly designed stadium (which it is) it still exists.

All I want is both sides to come out with a bit of balance to their opinion, in the last 20 years we've gone from the SYP trying to make out that the Liverpool fans were rampaging animals to the jf96 campaign suggesting they were all as docile as hindu cows and the nasty police forced them to walk to their deaths. In both cases the mass media and politicians of the time backed the idea for their own gain.

To me it's all a bit hypocritical.

Thats what i've been trying to say but didn't have the intelligence to do so...thanks..couldn't have put it better myself....which as we know..I couldn't.

 

[DTES]

it's somewhere between the 2 enquiries but now we will never know the whole truth.

What? NEITHER enquiry blamed the fans. This seems to be a regular statement by those desperate to pin some blame on the fans; I have no idea if it's because they (you) don't actually have a scooby what the reports say, or because you're just trying to mislead & misrepresent the reports.

It can be wherever you like between the two of them, but it won't help your case...

 

[Questions]

What? NEITHER enquiry blamed the fans. This seems to be a regular statement by those desperate to pin some blame on the fans; I have no idea if it's because they (you) don't actually have a scooby what the reports say, or because you're just trying to mislead & misrepresent the reports.

It can be wherever you like between the two of them, but it won't help your case...

When people have held a belief for maybe one year or heaven forbid.... 23 years, they are going to take a bit of convincing. They might never come round.

 

[BadFish]

I don't think there's anyone trying to argue that the fans were to blame. I just find it annoying that we're not allowed to acknowledge that some of those fans outside played their part in a chain reaction of events that lead up to the disaster, even if it's a tiny proportion compared to the police incompetence and badly designed stadium (which it is) it still exists.

All I want is both sides to come out with a bit of balance to their opinion, in the last 20 years we've gone from the SYP trying to make out that the Liverpool fans were rampaging animals to the jf96 campaign suggesting they were all as docile as hindu cows and the nasty police forced them to walk to their deaths. In both cases the mass media and politicians of the time backed the idea for their own gain.

To me it's all a bit hypocritical.

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that the fans were docile or impeccably behaved (after you la! no please, after you la) I think what has been proven is that the football fans behaved in a normal way that way you would expect football fans to behave. I am guessing we have all been in crowds and done a bit of pushing and shoving and behaved in a less that polite way at a football match but never would we expect people to die because of our actions. As pointed out earlier I would guess that some people feel incredibly guilty about the way they behaved on that day. But given the fact that this was the late 80's and at a high profile football match the fans (as has been proved by two inquiries) did not behave in an unexpected or unusual way and were not to blame for what happened.

 

[drew]

Billy the Fish has put it very succinctly. The tragedy was a culmination of events and decisions. The behaviour of the fans played a part however the question is whether the behaviour was out of the ordinary, which it probably wasn't for a match of that status, and whether the Police should have predicted that, which they should. And before anyone gets all righteous, the behaviour relates to the fact that there were ticketless fans and there were drunken fans. Just as there were fans who'd only had a couple of drinks and fans that were stone cold sober. If there weren't, that would probably have made that a unique match of it's period! Also, fans turn up late, they did at most matches because you couldn't get a drink in the grounds. How many times did you see on your match ticket ' please take you place 30 minutes before kick off' and how many of us ignored that! It is clear that the decisions of the Police to alleviate the crush and potential fatalities on the outside led to the crush and actual fatalities on the terraces but, as someone else alluded to, Sheffield Wed and the FA have come out of this virtually unscathed, so far and must be relieved that the Police are taking all the flak. Sheffield Wednesday had a dangerous stadium and chose to do nothing about that, happy to reap the finances that hosting semi-finals brought, and the FA knew of the problems and chose to ignore them.

And finally, of course, the biggest problem was the introduction of pens and fencing which was the knee jerk reaction of the administrators of football to the behaviour of a small minority of so called fans at virtually every club in the country. No fencing or pens then I doubt there would have been a tragedy and we wouldn't be talking about it now!!!

 

[Acker79]

I've finished the first two parts of the final taylor report. One thing that was mentioned that seems to be relevant to the discussion as it is at this point: crowd behaviour was the product of the treatment of football fans. It isn't simply "mob mentality" but that fans were treated as second class citizen, with poor facilities, no consideration and a much more thorough explanation of this point than I am awake enough to recap properly.

It does also include mentions of various types of hooliganism, one of which is that of the copycat hooligan, who does it because he sees others doing it (this I believe is his way of referencing mob mentality, without necessarily labelling it as such).

If we're going to look at the crowds behaviour, don't we also have to look at the cause of their behaviour? Which according to the taylor report includes the attitudes to and treatment of fans by everyone - not just the crowd control aspect, but the facilities the club provides, the catering, pre-match entertainment etc.

I'm not sure I've just written anything that makes much sense, sorry, I'm going to bed now.

 

[Hamilton]

I don't think there's anyone trying to argue that the fans were to blame. I just find it annoying that we're not allowed to acknowledge that some of those fans outside played their part in a chain reaction of events that lead up to the disaster, even if it's a tiny proportion compared to the police incompetence and badly designed stadium (which it is) it still exists.

All I want is both sides to come out with a bit of balance to their opinion, in the last 20 years we've gone from the SYP trying to make out that the Liverpool fans were rampaging animals to the jf96 campaign suggesting they were all as docile as hindu cows and the nasty police forced them to walk to their deaths. In both cases the mass media and politicians of the time backed the idea for their own gain.

To me it's all a bit hypocritical.

Look at it this way. If someone were to say that the victims of 7/7 or 9/11 played their part in the disaster by turning up for work that day then everyone would be in uproar. Had they not gone to work that day then there would have been no victims.

The point is that people go to football matches. They like a bit of a drink. They get impatient in queues if the game is about to start. If those in authority open a gate then they'll go through it - they'll even get swept through it. People turn up to things. They expect those things to be organised safely because that is what others are paid to do and have a duty to do.

Liverpool supporters were victims that day because they qualified for the semi finals and were given the Leppings Lane end.

Perhaps we should blame Brentford for not beating them in the quarter finals, but then were would probably have had a Hillsborough the following season with a different club involved.

 

[The Wookiee]

I might be missing something, but aren't perhaps the FA and LFC culpable in some way, with the way the tickets were sold? I would imagine it was an all ticket affair, given it being an FA Cup Semi, so surely those two bodies should have taken into account the amount of people that can safely fit into a given area, so selling more than that would have been some part of the cause?

I'm genuinely interested, and not having a pop at either the FA or LFC.

I often wonder what would of happened if those fans without tickets stayed at home ?

 

[Falkor]

A crush is not evident at the very back. You'd happily wait in the concourse, if Brighton were playing, to wait until there was ample space available to saunter in and see your team?

about 20 people died in the tunnel leading into the pen i thought there where people dying towards the back aswell as the front.

 

[Falkor]

The thing is with the fans there would have be no more drunken fans than we have turn up on a saturday, this is what the report says there where drunk fans but no more than at any other game, so it cant be used as an excuse.

 

[kevtherev]

It does seem that some scousers are not going to be happy, until they get public floggings and hangings. As one door closes, another one opens and they just want more and more and more...The press, the Prime Minister and the Police have all said sorry publicly, the past is the past, it was a tragic piece of this countries history and maybe someone should serve some time inside. But it's about time some of these scousers moved on, or maybe they just don't want too

 

[Falkor]

It does seem that some scousers are not going to be happy, until they get public floggings and hangings. As one door closes, another one opens and they just want more and more and more...The press, the Prime Minister and the Police have all said sorry publicly, the past is the past, it was a tragic piece of this countries history and maybe someone should serve some time inside. But it's about time some of these scousers moved on, or maybe they just don't want too

Would you if it was you kids?

Knowing atleast 40 of them had the possibility of still be saved but due to constant f*** ups there dead.

They have a right to carry on and want justice, a number of people have alot to answer for.

I think the FA and Sheff Wed have an awful lot to answer.

 

[Simster]

It does seem that some scousers are not going to be happy, until they get public floggings and hangings. As one door closes, another one opens and they just want more and more and more...The press, the Prime Minister and the Police have all said sorry publicly, the past is the past, it was a tragic piece of this countries history and maybe someone should serve some time inside.But it's about time some of these scousers moved on, or maybe they just don't want too

This attitude beggars belief. I can't even be arsed to explain why because it really is VERY obvious.

 

[Hamilton]

It does seem that some scousers are not going to be happy, until they get public floggings and hangings. As one door closes, another one opens and they just want more and more and more...The press, the Prime Minister and the Police have all said sorry publicly, the past is the past, it was a tragic piece of this countries history and maybe someone should serve some time inside. But it's about time some of these scousers moved on, or maybe they just don't want too

What a ridiculous thing to say. Are you sure you meant that?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

It does seem that some scousers are not going to be happy, until they get public floggings and hangings. As one door closes, another one opens and they just want more and more and more...The press, the Prime Minister and the Police have all said sorry publicly, the past is the past, it was a tragic piece of this countries history and maybe someone should serve some time inside. But it's about time some of these scousers moved on, or maybe they just don't want too

Would you be speaking like that if it was black people involved. I think not.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

It does seem that some scousers are not going to be happy, until they get public floggings and hangings. As one door closes, another one opens and they just want more and more and more...The press, the Prime Minister and the Police have all said sorry publicly, the past is the past, it was a tragic piece of this countries history and maybe someone should serve some time inside. But it's about time some of these scousers moved on, or maybe they just don't want too

The families doing what you suggest, would be much more indicative of a victim mentality that people are trying to smear them with, as they would be merely at the effect of the deaths, police incompetence, cover-ups and tabloid smears. Fact is, they got off their backsides and pro-actively challenged and changed people's perceptions of what happened. Pretty admirable stuff.

 

[El Presidente]

It does seem that some scousers are not going to be happy, until they get public floggings and hangings. As one door closes, another one opens and they just want more and more and more...The press, the Prime Minister and the Police have all said sorry publicly, the past is the past, it was a tragic piece of this countries history and maybe someone should serve some time inside. But it's about time some of these scousers moved on, or maybe they just don't want too

Kev, if it had been 96 Brighton fans killed at the match, some of whom were your friends or relatives, and Albion fans had been blamed by the police, the politicians and the fourth estate for the death of your fellow fans, do you think we would have 'moved on' until we had cleared the name of Albion fans, and identified those who had not just lied, but whose decisions had directly contributed to their death?

By all means criticise the mawkish sentimentality, black armband at the slightest opportunity, Suarez defending, phlegm talking, embarrassing poem writing section of the Anfield faithful, they deserve it, but the 96 don't.

A proportion of our fanbase can't 'move on' from Scott McGleish, Dan Harding, Dean Hammond and so on, whose crimes were hardly in line with those of STPC, or were they?

 

[drew]

I've finished the first two parts of the final taylor report. One thing that was mentioned that seems to be relevant to the discussion as it is at this point: crowd behaviour was the product of the treatment of football fans. It isn't simply "mob mentality" but that fans were treated as second class citizen, with poor facilities, no consideration and a much more thorough explanation of this point than I am awake enough to recap properly.

It does also include mentions of various types of hooliganism, one of which is that of the copycat hooligan, who does it because he sees others doing it (this I believe is his way of referencing mob mentality, without necessarily labelling it as such).

If we're going to look at the crowds behaviour, don't we also have to look at the cause of their behaviour? Which according to the taylor report includes the attitudes to and treatment of fans by everyone - not just the crowd control aspect, but the facilities the club provides, the catering, pre-match entertainment etc.

I'm not sure I've just written anything that makes much sense, sorry, I'm going to bed now.

Individuals still have to take responsibility for their own actions. The vast majority of fans did not engage in football hooliganism. They made a choice. Facilities at football had been bad for many decades before Hillsborough. Fans got penned in because they fought and this invariable overspilled onto the pitch. I suspect that there are several on this forum who got involved and they did so because invariably, they could get away with it. It was still their choice.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

It does seem that some scousers are not going to be happy, until they get public floggings and hangings. As one door closes, another one opens and they just want more and more and more...The press, the Prime Minister and the Police have all said sorry publicly, the past is the past, it was a tragic piece of this countries history and maybe someone should serve some time inside. But it's about time some of these scousers moved on, or maybe they just don't want too

When you know that your son was still alive at 4pm but the coroner has recorded everyone dead by 3.15, and also know that only one ambulance was allowed to enter the ground, wouldn't you want the inquest to be reopened? Wouldn't you want to know why he was denied medical help?