York Mosque shows the way for all of us

[Baldseagull]

I was going to watch that video and still haven't got round to it but I will and give you my responses.

You realise this kind of polite debate is not on and we should be offering each other out and arranging to meet in a pub car park somewhere. 'You wear a St Georges cross and I'll wear a Burka' kind of thing.

Thanks for the response, please do watch the video, I had a similar impression of the EDL to that which you seem to have, but found I was more in agreement than disagreement with most of the statements made in that video. I would not say I am an EDL supporter, but neither would I dismiss them all as racist thugs or as a racist organisation. Those that went and spoke with the representatives of the York Mosque seem to have been open minded enough.
I will look out for you in your Blue and White Burka.

 

[BadFish]

Thanks for the response, please do watch the video, I had a similar impression of the EDL to that which you seem to have, but found I was more in agreement than disagreement with most of the statements made in that video. I would not say I am an EDL supporter, but neither would I dismiss them all as racist thugs or as a racist organisation. Those that went and spoke with the representatives of the York Mosque seem to have been open minded enough.
I will look out for you in your Blue and White Burka.

I must admit that during our conversation I had a look at their website (find it hard to watch videos as my house in very noisy). And was surprised at how moderate and logical their ideas and mission statement are. Maybe I should not be so quick to judge and I have full respect for those that drank tea with the Muslims in York. I do wonder how their statements and ideals translate to what actually happens with regard to those that go to their demonstrations though.

 

[BadFish]

Hey Badfish, a clip from the country you live in. Now this is the best way to deal with the radicals...lol. Brilliant.

I agree to a point. Although I think that the very best way would have been to completely ignore them and their nonsense. Still a bit of humour and no violence is a wonderful start. Gotta love those Atheists

The best bit is the placard that suggest Athiests will burn in hell. It is a wonderful irony that they choose to get their message across by telling people they will burn in a place that they don't believe exists........wonderful!

 

[daveinprague]

EDL are not a racist organisation?
We keep being told that they are rooting out racism, and that when found, stewards will immediately remove the culprit, or culprits....
Absolute BOLLOCKS.........Really not sure why people keep claiming this is not a racist organisation when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuEfDKvv3DQ

 

[BadFish]

EDL are not a racist organisation?
We keep being told that they are rooting out racism, and that when found, stewards will immediately remove the culprit, or culprits....
Absolute BOLLOCKS.........Really not sure why people keep claiming this is not a racist organisation when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuEfDKvv3DQ

Maybe trying not to be or tyring not to appear to be would be closer to the truth.

 

[Soulman]

I must admit that during our conversation I had a look at their website (find it hard to watch videos as my house in very noisy). And was surprised at how moderate and logical their ideas and mission statement are. Maybe I should not be so quick to judge and I have full respect for those that drank tea with the Muslims in York. I do wonder how their statements and ideals translate to what actually happens with regard to those that go to their demonstrations though.

This is a clip of the EDL and Muslims talking at Hyde Park Corner.

 

[BadFish]

This is a clip of the EDL and Muslims talking at Hyde Park Corner.

I have a question for you Soulman. It is something that is bugging me about your stance on the EDL. I don't think you will want to answer it and I understand if you don't but I will ask it anyway.

Why would you being a member of the EDL cause out security clearance problems in your job? Surely if, as you assert, they are a bona fide political group with decent and well accepted ideals and beliefs, there would be no problem with you being a member?

 

[Soulman]

I have a question for you Soulman. It is something that is bugging me about your stance on the EDL. I don't think you will want to answer it and I understand if you don't but I will ask it anyway.

Why would you being a member of the EDL cause out security clearance problems in your job? Surely if, as you assert, they are a bona fide political group with decent and well accepted ideals and beliefs, there would be no problem with you being a member?

Firstly they are not a political group, secondly i do not want to be a member. Thirdly perhaps you have no idea how many people have lost their jobs when it comes to light that they are members of the EDL. I can assure you that i would not get security clearance if i was a member, for reasons that i am not prepared to divulge.

 

[BadFish]

Firstly they are not a political group, secondly i do not want to be a member. Thirdly perhaps you have no idea how many people have lost their jobs when it comes to light that they are members of the EDL. I can assure you that i would not get security clearance if i was a member, for reasons that i am not prepared to divulge.

What are they if not a political group?

I know you don't want to be a member I got that after the 234th you told me.

Why do EDL members lose their jobs? Is it blind prejudice on behalf of employers who don't understand what they are about? Or is there a more sinister reason?

My point being that if the EDL are a Bone Fide political group (or whatever you want to call them) with reasonable ideals and beliefs then why do so many people lose their jobs for being members?

 

[Soulman]

What are they if not a political group?

I know you don't want to be a member I got that after the 234th you told me.

Why do EDL members lose their jobs? Is it blind prejudice on behalf of employers who don't understand what they are about? Or is there a more sinister reason?

My point being that if the EDL are a Bone Fide political group (or whatever you want to call them) with reasonable ideals and beliefs then why do so many people lose their jobs for being members?

1) they are not a political group because they do not put up candidates for elections.
2) Why keep asking and insinuating re EDL member then (235th time)
3) EDL members losing jobs. Your points summed it up nicely.
4) To keep the people with a view down. Government instigated i would suspect. Research Camorons view on the English...re "Sour Little Englanders" etc

 

[BadFish]

1) they are not a political group because they do not put up candidates for elections.
2) Why keep asking and insinuating re EDL member then (235th time)
3) EDL members losing jobs. Your points summed it up nicely.
4) To keep the people with a view down.

Thanks for your answers

1) I think you are thinking of a political party but anyway that is not important, just semantics.
2) I don't keep insinuating you are or want to be an EDL member, I made a joke about it a few pages ago and apologised for the offense it caused. If you really want to know I would ocnsider you a sympathiser based on the fact that you share some of the same views (I am a little confused why you have so far refused to share what they are but that is up to you)
3) If both of my points sum it up are you suggesting that it is blind prejudice and a more sinister reason? If it is blind prejudice then does blind prejudice stop you getting security clearance for something? Sorry still confused about the answer to my question.
4) Is this the more sinister reason?

 

[daveinprague]

EDL linked up with BFP (British Freedom Party), and Tommy, and his cousin Kev Carroll had roles in the 'leadership', but it collapsed within a couple of weeks.

 

[King of Birds]

It sounds condescending to you because I don’t think you DO actually want to confront Islam where you disagree with it. In earlier posts you agreed that challenging radical Islam is important, but then that is easy to say. Considering the areas where we should start is much more difficult. You have no problem attacking the EDL’s approach to this issue, (which is fair enough) but what is your alternative strategy? Give a constructive example instead of just criticising, that is what rational debate is about.

I have used a couple of examples with the burka and Islamic marriage arrangements (mainly from south asian muslims) to provide a narrative on areas we could confront the cultural attitudes of muslims as both are inconsistent with British cultural values. Both are examples too where many British people feel that such cultural traditions are diametrically opposed to their own and representative of an unwillingness of muslims to actually integrate. They are also (more importantly) two examples where (in my view) moderate muslims could intervene so as to provide a tangible demonstration of their willingness to conform with the traditions of British society. This hasn’t happened, not that I can think of any examples where British muslims have sought to compromise their cultural traditions to help with integration. This approach would help demonstrate that integration is (as you put it) a two way street.

I don’t deny that British foreign policy is an element that has contributed to the rise of radical Islam in this country, but many other British people were angry about Iraq and Afghanistan it too, and that’s one of the reasons why Labour were voted out. Your sentiment that it hasn’t helped British muslims to integrate with British society conveys an impression that you accept that view as a justifiable position.............even though its indefensible. Unless I am wrong?

See, that's the condescending tone again. Saying things like "I don’t think you DO actually want to confront Islam where you disagree with it" after all I've done is make a few posts posing some of the difficult questions as I see them. I've made no attempt to pretend I know the answers, 'cos I don't. I assure you I very much DO want to confront all forms of extremism, as that is the only progressive way forward from this mess. You seem more concerned with picking holes in historical analogies and trying to trip people up with intellectual snobbery than actually listening to what they're trying to say. If you read my posts you will see I've been consistently damming of both the EDL and the Islamists. I've even posted that I agree with many of your observations, but your MO continues to be one of trying score points rather than actually have the rational debate you claim to want.

I'm not trying to make this personal, as that is pointless and boring for everyone else, but I've seen you use this approach with other posters who don't necessarily share the level of concern you have regarding immigration. So, I'll say again, take it or leave it - try getting of your high horse and you'll get a better response, if that is what you DO really want ;-)

PS; Blowing up and butchering people in retaliation to our foreign policy is indefensible to any decent human being. There is a difference between indefensible and understandable though - you can understand why things happen without having to defend them. What we are seeing on our streets was always going to be the net result of our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. That doesn't mean it's right, but it was always going to happen - chickens home to roost as you put it when you were noting some of the problems with immigration. By the same token, as much as I detest the EDL I can understand why, now in particular, some people are being drawn towards them. It is that search for understanding on all sides that holds the key to progress, as, I'm sure you'll agree, polarisation and sloganeering has never gotten anyone anywhere. The IRA's wings were clipped by including them in the political process. Admittedly this is far more problematic with the likes of the Taliban, as there stated aim is the destruction of non-Islamic nations. But unwinnable wars of occupation, unwinnable 'wars on terror', and marching up and down making Nazi salutes is about as much use as sticking your head in the sand and hoping it'll all just go away.

 

[King of Birds]

So, to answer Fergus' "where to start with Muslim culture in the UK" questions;

I wouldn't ban the burka per se, but I would try to discourage the wearing of it, working with Imams and the Muslim Council of Great Britain.

I would make arranged marriages illegal as I don't believe they have any place in modern society, anywhere.

I would get as many people as possible from all walks of life into schools and community groups to educate and debate the issues we are talking about here.

Paradoxically, prior to Iraq and Afghanistan there was some evidence of young British Muslims starting to moderate and reject the more archaic elements of Islam held by their parents. Some still do, I know this because some such are my friends, but many have been and continue to be radicalised, with our foreign policies used as a convenient argument by the brain-washers. We scored such a massive own goal by hanging on to the United States' shirttails it's unbelievable.

 

[daveinprague]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ic-centre-is-burnt-to-the-ground-8646716.html

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

So, to answer Fergus' "where to start with Muslim culture in the UK" questions;

I wouldn't ban the burka per se, but I would try to discourage the wearing of it, working with Imams and the Muslim Council of Great Britain.

I would make arranged marriages illegal as I don't believe they have any place in modern society, anywhere.

I would get as many people as possible from all walks of life into schools and community groups to educate and debate the issues we are talking about here.

Paradoxically, prior to Iraq and Afghanistan there was some evidence of young British Muslims starting to moderate and reject the more archaic elements of Islam held by their parents. Some still do, I know this because some such are my friends, but many have been and continue to be radicalised, with our foreign policies used as a convenient argument by the brain-washers. We scored such a massive own goal by hanging on to the United States' shirttails it's unbelievable.

A very balanced and sensible view.

Having some minor involvement in Inter-faith work, all the Muslims I know who have ever talked about the burka would say that there is nothing in the Koran to support its use, which is just an over-zealous interpretation of the idea of dressing modestly.

Neither do they like the idea of arranged marriages. They are just the same as us, really - whoever "us" is. And the more we all talk about these things, the better.

 

[The Spanish]

A very balanced and sensible view.

Having some minor involvement in Inter-faith work, all the Muslims I know who have ever talked about the burka would say that there is nothing in the Koran to support its use, which is just an over-zealous interpretation of the idea of dressing modestly.

Neither do they like the idea of arranged marriages. They are just the same as us, really - whoever "us" is. And the more we all talk about these things, the better.

hahaha how are you going to ban arranged marriages?? thats just nonsense. to what degree of arrangement? how will you enforce this?

sorry but thats liberal gibberish to avoid discussing the real issue head on.

indeed what this country needs is more pointless unenforceable legislation at a massive cost.

as for moderating our foreign policy so as not to produce terrorists who hack soldiers to death on the streets of london, out of British citizens, then that is taking the bonkersness to a new level.

if you think thats sensible and balanced david then i am concerned. its moderate and unconfrontational yes, but thats not the same thing.

these wishy washy attitudes are exactly what bought us to this point.

 

[Soulman]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ic-centre-is-burnt-to-the-ground-8646716.html

Terrible if true, we shall see. The Somali Mosque was pretty run down by all accounts so you never know.
AUSTRIA: Muslims set fire to their own restaurant after leaving ‘racist’ and ‘Islamophobic’ graffiti on the building to implicate right wingers
http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=64986

I see Bomber Command has been targeted again as well.
http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2013-06-05/bomber-command-war-memorial-vandalised-again/

 

[daveinprague]

Yeah, but it was rented property from Barnet council ive read......cant see it ..itll come out though, im sure...
Yeah, I saw the memorial as well...pretty foul...again...

 

[Soulman]

Yeah, but it was rented property from Barnet council ive read......cant see it ..itll come out though, im sure...
Yeah, I saw the memorial as well...pretty foul...again...

A comment on one of the articles on the fire, claiming to be from someone who lived in the area, said that it was a community centre with a youth club and all sorts and then the muslims arrived. It very quickly got taken over, with the original committee members quickly replaced by muslims and then it was an exclusively muslim community centre (not a peep from the authorities, obviously) and then a prayer facility referred to as a mosque but not actually one in the true sense. Meanwhile, the non-muslim youth that had somewhere to go previously became bored and disaffected.
It may be a local using the recent events to show his anger, or an insurance job.
I'm not sure it was a council owned building though....maybe.