[Misc] Why Christianity needs to give its head a wobble

[GT49er]

Most practising atheist don't believe any of it happened!

Most? Only most of them? Wow! That's some revelation - so, which bits of it do some atheists believe, or is their a subversive group of quasi-atheists that believe and pretend not to?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Wasn't the timing of Christmas incorporated into the old pagan midwinter festival ? That's what I told the vicar at last year's carol concert when he asked why I had turned up naked and painted in Woad.

I'm going to feel a bit foolish if that explanation is wrong

 

[beorhthelm]

Completely made up event? He had to be born in order to be crucified.
And most practising Christians would accept that stuff like the three kings and the shepherds turning up probably didn’t happen all at the same time to provide the archetypal Nativity Scene.

the gospels have two different versions and two dont mention it, we can conclude it's made up. putting a date on the birth is entirely arbitrary, except it just happens to fall adjacent to important pagan ceremonies.

 

[Stato]

I'll bite. His date of birth is unknown, so a date was chosen.

That's like our cat. Maybe that's why he acts so aloof: Christ complex.

Christian leaders were very flexible when the Romans were looking for new religions to adopt. Keeping the a mid winter festival as a celebration to replace Saturnalia/Winter Solstice was an easy compromise.

 

[jcdenton08]

the gospels have two different versions and two dont mention it, we can conclude it's made up. putting a date on the birth is entirely arbitary, except it just happens to fall adjacent to important pagan ceremonies.

Jesus is mentioned in writings as early as 37AD by Jewish scribes such as Josephus, who specifically mentions (and backs) his crucifixion. Same with Tacitus and a few others. These people, particularly Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius were not fans of his. Most of their writings were in favour of his crucifixion, calling him a troublemaker/blasphemer and backing Pontius Pilatus.

The point I’m making is that proof of Jesus’s existence and aspects of his life (including birth, preaching, and crucifixion) aren’t really questioned by atheists such as Richard Dawkins and other prominent atheists. Talk of Jesus exists contemporaneously outside of the Bible.

What they believe, generalising here, was that he was a bloke, who had followers “bigging him up”, calling himself the son of God, then getting tried, flogged then crucified for being a Very Naughty Boy because the priests, scribes and a lot of powerful people were pissed off that this bloke was going around saying he was the son of God.

The difference in all this is that Christians believe he was indeed the son the God, whereas atheists point out there is no evidence of this except old stories written by his mates and it’s pretty unlikely given there’s no proof God exists anyway.

 

[chip]

Don't forget that Pesach celebrates the achievments of Bob Marley and Desmond Decker with the exodous of the Israelites. It's really a music festival.

 

[Boys 9d]

Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas as a religious festival on the 7th January.

 

[Gazwag]

Billy Sharpe came back to life on 7th August 2011, the day after Dunky killed him and he is still going strong 14 years later

 

[AmexRuislip]

When was Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ born? December 25th, right? That's what we've all agreed, whether it's accurate or not.

Fair enough.

When did he die and come back from the dead? Easter, correct?

Last year, Easter Sunday was March 31st.

This year, it's April 20th.

So why do take one date as gospel but the other is a moveable chocolate feast?

Is it because it's all Horlicks? Or is there a genuine reason?

Have you watched the Life of Brian, I think you'll be surprised

 

[Comrade Sam]

Many (arguably most) prominent atheist writers accept Jesus, or the person referred to as Jesus, was a person who existed. They don’t believe he was the son of God, but they accept there was a man who existed approximately in the timescales laid out in the Bible.

Atheism isn’t a denial of recorded history, it’s a belief that there is no deity, only evolution.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. There is no contemporaneous evidence and Jesus was a very popular name - Judas and Jacob both being versions of the same name. The only written source is by Josephus and most scholars agree the reference was a much later Christian addition to the text.
I agree with your second point.

 

[Comrade Sam]

Mithras was born on the 25th of December and his mum was a virgin.

 

[Eeyore]

That's like our cat. Maybe that's why he acts so aloof: Christ complex.

Christian leaders were very flexible when the Romans were looking for new religions to adopt. Keeping the a mid winter festival as a celebration to replace Saturnalia/Winter Solstice was an easy compromise.

Cats never let you forget they were worshiped in ancient Egypt. They were once revered. The Leeds United fans of the animal world.

 

[Giraffe]

Just google, 30 seconds:

The date of Easter changes each year because it is based on the lunar cycles of the Jewish calendar. The date of Passover, a Jewish festival, fluctuates each year, which in turn affects the date of Easter.

Explanation

• Easter is celebrated on the first Sunday after the Paschal Full Moon, which is the first full moon after the spring equinox.
  
  
• The spring equinox is on March 21, but the astronomical date of the equinox can vary by a day or two.
  
  
• The Catholic Church uses a fixed date of March 21 to define the spring equinox, known as the ecclesiastical equinox.
  
  
• • The date of Easter can vary from year to year, falling anywhere between March 22 and April 25.
    
  • In 325 AD, the First Council of Nicea agreed on a unified date for Easter.
    

Other considerations

• • Not all branches of Christianity follow the Gregorian calendar.
  • Many Eastern Orthodox churches follow the Julian calendar, which means Easter often falls on a different day than in the UK.

 

[Eeyore]

Jesus is mentioned in writings as early as 37AD by Jewish scribes such as Josephus, who specifically mentions (and backs) his crucifixion. Same with Tacitus and a few others. These people, particularly Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius were not fans of his. Most of their writings were in favour of his crucifixion, calling him a troublemaker/blasphemer and backing Pontius Pilatus.

The point I’m making is that proof of Jesus’s existence and aspects of his life (including birth, preaching, and crucifixion) aren’t really questioned by atheists such as Richard Dawkins and other prominent atheists. Talk of Jesus exists contemporaneously outside of the Bible.

What they believe, generalising here, was that he was a bloke, who had followers “bigging him up”, calling himself the son of God, then getting tried, flogged then crucified for being a Very Naughty Boy because the priests, scribes and a lot of powerful people were pissed off that this bloke was going around saying he was the son of God.

The difference in all this is that Christians believe he was indeed the son the God, whereas atheists point out there is no evidence of this except old stories written by his mates and it’s pretty unlikely given there’s no proof God exists anyway.

Unrepentant scholar here ! Josephus mentions Jesus in the Antiquities. That would have been a lot later.

Given that he was a devout Jew, I also have doubts about his quote concerning Jesus as being an authentic one. I think the translation was 'got to' over time. It doesn't fit in with his character and beliefs. Tacitus provides a lot more insight.

The key period of AD 33-+ 20 years is silent. Which is frustrating. It's more frustrating that I think there would have been stuff which may have been in the hands of scholars but disappeared for some reason. Even then, the power is in the pen, much like today, and we know that history was written in accordance with motives and worldview, much like today.

Two of the gospels are synoptic, thus there was likely an original source from the first 20 odd years. Alas, we will doubtless never see it, although it probably wouldn't be much more than was re-scribed.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Many (arguably most) prominent atheist writers accept Jesus, or the person referred to as Jesus, was a person who existed. They don’t believe he was the son of God, but they accept there was a man who existed approximately in the timescales laid out in the Bible.

Atheism isn’t a denial of recorded history, it’s a belief that there is no deity, only evolution.

So you’re telling me the bloke up the town centre claiming to be the son of Christ isn’t the first?!

 

[jcdenton08]

So you’re telling me the bloke up the town centre claiming to be the son of Christ isn’t the first?!

Sorry but no I did meet some lovely people by Churchill Square though who did something called an “audit” on me.

Seeing them again next week!

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Sorry but no I did meet some lovely people by Churchill Square though who did something called an “audit” on me.

Seeing them again next week!

Last time I was up near Blackfriars I was invited from the deserted street early morning on a Saturday to attend a free tour of the Scientology building, I declined as there would be limited evidence of me entering the building!

 

[Lady Whistledown]

So you’re telling me the bloke up the town centre claiming to be the son of Christ isn’t the first?!

So you're telling me it isn't David Icke either?

Happy memories of the Goldstone North Standers singing to him.

Oh David Icke (oh David Icke)
Is off his bike (is off his bike)
Oh David Icke is off his bike
The son of God, in a turquoise tracksuit
Oh David Icke is off his bike

 

[ozzygull]

I have always wondered what it would have been like to be a fly on the wall, when Joseph the carpenter goes back to work and tells his work colleagues, that Mary, his wife is pregnant. As they are congratulating him , he says "no, no it's not mine lads, she tells me it Gods. Wonder what the looks on their faces was like.

I do love a bit of chocolate and days off, so easter is a good thing.

 

[drew]

Most? Only most of them? Wow! That's some revelation - so, which bits of it do some atheists believe, or is their a subversive group of quasi-atheists that believe and pretend not to?

Apologies, thought it was clear that I was parodying a previous post!!!