Well Done UKIP.

[BadFish]

Agreed. I was horrified when I moved here from Brighton. The big difference here is that a lot of the Essex folk are really east Londoners who have never left Bethnal Green in their minds. To the older generation it is absolutely horrifying that "their' city has now become a multi ethnic slum and they have passed their views on to the next generation. It is not something that affects Brighton so much as Sussex attracts Londoners from (typically) the more affluent areas which have not been changed so dramatically. Brighton also prides itself on its "tolerance" and libertarian airs.

To my mind the people if Essex are less far up their own arses than Brightonians. It is true (clearly) that the vast majority of Brits are fed up to the back teeth of huge immigration and EU legal impositions on our national life. Honestly, I mean really honestly is anyone in favour uncontrolled inward migration? Seriously...does anyone think that the UK is incapable of deciding for itself how best to run its legal systems and its borders?

Anyway. UKIP. Has succeeded in forcing the national debate. Has given voice to millions of Brits who were being lectured to and told to just shut up and take whatever we were told. And to that end...good.

UKIP have run their campaign as the party for immigration controls and to leave the EU and they have made incredible gains and demonstrated the need for further debate on this. However they have 27.5 % of the vote (according to the aritcle i just read), there is no way you can say

It is true (clearly) that the vast majority of Brits are fed up to the back teeth of huge immigration and EU legal impositions on our national life

As 27.5% of the vote does not represent a clear or vast majority, this means it that 72.5% of the voters have voted to remain in the EU and to continue with current levels of immigration.

I am not denying for one moment that this is not a significant victory for UKIP nor that it doesn't represent a change in opinion and demonstrate the need to engage in discussion on the issue but i think you are getting ahead of yourself here.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Noone has all the answers but the Greens are the only party to have any kind of laudable philopsophy. The greatest shame of all of this is that people did not consider the environment, the distribution of wealth and the notion of looking after the less fortunate members of society when they made their 'protest' against the major parties.

I'm sure that's exactly what the current leader of B&H council, a multi tech start up founder, anti e-voting co-ordinatior and general megalomaniac had in mind when he selflessly led the Greens to victory in Brighton. He mentions it all the time in his bio. (He doesn't - it reads like a linked in cv)

 

[BadFish]

I'm sure that's exactly what the current leader of B&H council, a multi tech start up founder, anti e-voting co-ordinatior and general megalomaniac had in mind when he selflessly led the Greens to victory in Brighton. He mentions it all the time in his bio. (He doesn't - it reads like a linked in cv)

Sorry don't know much about him, got a link?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Sorry don't know much about him, got a link?

http://www.jasonkitcat.com/about/

Note all the stuff about fracking and whales and vegetarianism and JUST HOW FRICKIN GREAT JASON KITCAT IS AT CREATING TECHNOLOGY THAT MIGHT TAKE A FEW KILOWATTS TO ACCESS.

 

[BadFish]

http://www.jasonkitcat.com/about/

Note all the stuff about fracking and whales and vegetarianism and JUST HOW FRICKIN GREAT JASON KITCAT IS AT CREATING TECHNOLOGY THAT MIGHT TAKE A FEW KILOWATTS TO ACCESS.

Ta I will have to read it later as I am off to work.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I think you are missing the point.

For those supporting UKIP I suspect they don't care a jot about how UKIP MEPs discharge their EU parliamentary duties because they don't agree with the EU (at the very least least in its current form). Whilst it is not directly comparable the principle is similar and republican voters in NI who elected Sinn Fein MPs; they equally did not care that they never took their place in Parliament.

It is ironic that the UK is now sending more UKIP MEPs to Brussels as oppose to enthusiastic Lib Dems who would gladly contribute in whatever way they could to maintain and deepen the EU project, however that is the unequivocal message that has been sent to the EU by the UK electorate.

Unfortunately, like many pro European enthusiasts, the EU is not good in dealing with democracy, as previous referendums have demonstrated. Little wonder the institution is so unpopular. On past performance there is little indication that they will pay any attention to this election and will likely barrel onwards with their master plan for a federal state regardless. To be honest for the EU there is no plan B, it's all or nothing.

If they do press on this will cause even greater resentment, particularly with the elected Govts in France and the UK who will be punished if the electorate think they are being weak with the EU.

Like I said in this climate the EU wreckers could be La Belle Francais, Hollande is like Clegg a busted flush, so he has to look strong now for any chance of recovery, certainly the demand for greater integration for the EZ looks challenging after last night. Even then if the FN get their way the EU is dead..........Vive la France!!

I think you have a clear perspective on what you want the anti-federalists, to achieve. They may not have much time though, before being painted as useless as the rest of them, if they only sit on the sidelines sniping.

 

[Leighgull]

UKIP have run their campaign as the party for immigration controls and to leave the EU and they have made incredible gains and demonstrated the need for further debate on this. However they have 27.5 % of the vote (according to the aritcle i just read), there is no way you can say



As 27.5% of the vote does not represent a clear or vast majority, this means it that 72.5% of the voters have voted to remain in the EU and to continue with current levels of immigration.

I am not denying for one moment that this is not a significant victory for UKIP nor that it doesn't represent a change in opinion and demonstrate the need to engage in discussion on the issue but i think you are getting ahead of yourself here.

No. No it doesn't mean that 75% voted for current levels of immigration. It means that there are still millions of voters who have not stated a clear opinion on that but who have chosen to vote on their traditional lines because either:

1) they believe all that racist mud being slung by the media
2) they believe that the mainstream parties will address the issue in time

A more simple question...honest answers only.

Do YOU think that immigration, at current levels, is a good thing? That migrants are not placing pressure on UK health, education and housing provision let alone jobs.

Can YOU honestly say tat you haven't noticed a massive increase in EU migration since the accession countries joined?

If you can look me in the eye and state a firm yes, yes, no to those questions, without being asked whether or not you think there's a benefit to all this, then immigration has impacted on your life and you SHOULD have an opinion at least.

 

[vegster]

Would anyone recognise a UKIP member other than Farage ?

 

[Soulman]

Agreed. I was horrified when I moved here from Brighton. The big difference here is that a lot of the Essex folk are really east Londoners who have never left Bethnal Green in their minds. To the older generation it is absolutely horrifying that "their' city has now become a multi ethnic slum and they have passed their views on to the next generation. It is not something that affects Brighton so much as Sussex attracts Londoners from (typically) the more affluent areas which have not been changed so dramatically. Brighton also prides itself on its "tolerance" and libertarian airs.

To my mind the people if Essex are less far up their own arses than Brightonians. It is true (clearly) that the vast majority of Brits are fed up to the back teeth of huge immigration and EU legal impositions on our national life. Honestly, I mean really honestly is anyone in favour uncontrolled inward migration? Seriously...does anyone think that the UK is incapable of deciding for itself how best to run its legal systems and its borders?

Anyway. UKIP. Has succeeded in forcing the national debate. Has given voice to millions of Brits who were being lectured to and told to just shut up and take whatever we were told. And to that end...good.

I was born and brought up in Essex, left at the age of 21. Even back then Londoners and especially East Londoners were moving out of London, they felt it was no longer the London that they were born and brought up in.
Who would have envisage after the blitz etc that The East End would have the street names like Brick Lane in English with Arabic written underneath.
As for Tower Hamlets....let's not go there....literally.

 

[Soulman]

I'd disagree, I'd say its that there are more new towns such as Basildon, Chelmsford etc in Essex, if you talk to people in Crawley you'll find the prevailing attitude similar to Essex.

I was born and brought up in Chelmsford, it is a very old town, but i take your point that the Chelmsford i knew has expanded so so much. The villages around like Broomfield, Boreham, Hatfield Peverel etc have just become part of Chelmsford.
Chelmsford was changing in the late 70's, the Londoners were moving out in droves.

 

[Soulman]

No. No it doesn't mean that 75% voted for current levels of immigration. It means that there are still millions of voters who have not stated a clear opinion on that but who have chosen to vote on their traditional lines because either:

1) they believe all that racist mud being slung by the media
2) they believe that the mainstream parties will address the issue in time

A more simple question...honest answers only.

Do YOU think that immigration, at current levels, is a good thing? That migrants are not placing pressure on UK health, education and housing provision let alone jobs.

Can YOU honestly say tat you haven't noticed a massive increase in EU migration since the accession countries joined?

If you can look me in the eye and state a firm yes, yes, no to those questions, without being asked whether or not you think there's a benefit to all this, then immigration has impacted on your life and you SHOULD have an opinion at least.

With respect LG, you are asking questions to a chap that lives in OZ...so i doubt, looking at your last question, immigration has impacted on his life.

 

[Bakero]

I was born and brought up in Essex, left at the age of 21. Even back then Londoners and especially East Londoners were moving out of London, they felt it was no longer the London that they were born and brought up in.
Who would have envisage after the blitz etc that The East End would have the street names like Brick Lane in English with Arabic written underneath.
As for Tower Hamlets....let's not go there....literally.

It's terrible, isn't it? I never see English signs in other countries. Or hear English spoken. The expats, not to mention the tourists, blend in seamlessly wherever they go.

 

[El Presidente]

A more simple question...honest answers only.

Do YOU think that immigration, at current levels, is a good thing? That migrants are not placing pressure on UK health, education and housing provision let alone jobs.

Can YOU honestly say tat you haven't noticed a massive increase in EU migration since the accession countries joined?

If you can look me in the eye and state a firm yes, yes, no to those questions, without being asked whether or not you think there's a benefit to all this, then immigration has impacted on your life and you SHOULD have an opinion at least.

1: Given that many jobs in the NHS and education service are undertaken by migrants I would say no. The main reason for the struggles of the health service are caused by:
(a) An increase in the numbers of elderly patients, which far outstrips the increase in migration
(b) The costs of servicing PFI agreements, loved by both Labour and the Con-Lib coalition, which are exhorbitant and don't deliver an improvement in the quality of services.
(c) Medical advances that have increased in price at a faster rate than general inflation.

In relation to jobs, employment is at an all time high. Talk to employers and they would rather employ indigenous people. The jobs 'taken' by migrants tend to be either because the supply side of the labour market has failed to deliver in terms of quantity (e.g Doctors) or quality (e.g many areas of construction). In addition many migrants are taking jobs in areas where the local market isn't willing to deliver the nature of the job for the minimum wage on offer (e.g picking fruit and veg, retail, hotels etc.)

 

[BadFish]

No. No it doesn't mean that 75% voted for current levels of immigration. It means that there are still millions of voters who have not stated a clear opinion on that but who have chosen to vote on their traditional lines because either:

1) they believe all that racist mud being slung by the media
2) they believe that the mainstream parties will address the issue in time

A more simple question...honest answers only.

Do YOU think that immigration, at current levels, is a good thing? That migrants are not placing pressure on UK health, education and housing provision let alone jobs.

Can YOU honestly say tat you haven't noticed a massive increase in EU migration since the accession countries joined?

If you can look me in the eye and state a firm yes, yes, no to those questions, without being asked whether or not you think there's a benefit to all this, then immigration has impacted on your life and you SHOULD have an opinion at least.

There may be reasons for the way that 72.5% voted but they still voted a certain way and that is how a democracy works (I note that you have not stated any reasons why the 22.5% voted the way they did)

My point is that there is no way you can claim that this result clearly shows that a "vast majority of Brits are fed up to the back teeth of huge immigration and EU legal impositions on our national life." It simply doesn't. It shows that 22.5% of those that voted probably have concerns about immigration and the EU (this is my bias as i cannot fathom any other reason to vote for UKIP).

 

[BadFish]

With respect LG, you are asking questions to a chap that lives in OZ...so i doubt, looking at your last question, immigration has impacted on his life.

Funny you should say :so i doubt, looking at your last question, immigration has impacted on his life".

I would say that as a migrant, immigration has had a huge impact on my life.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I was born and brought up in Essex, left at the age of 21. Even back then Londoners and especially East Londoners were moving out of London, they felt it was no longer the London that they were born and brought up in.
Who would have envisage after the blitz etc that The East End would have the street names like Brick Lane in English with Arabic written underneath.
As for Tower Hamlets....let's not go there....literally.

There is really no point in explaining to some people what proper Multiculturism is. They just don't get, they will never get it. I was born and raised in Sussex. I'm back living in Sussex again but spent about 10 years in Luton on and off. Luton is like some areas of London. Yes it was an experience, and honestly It's not something I want repeating down here.

People need to stop comparing Brits going to Spain because the situation is completely different, in fact it is on the other end of the scale. Brits are not going to Spain and pushing another religion on them, and that is the biggest difference here.

 

[BadFish]

There is really no point in explaining to some people what proper Multiculturism is. They just don't get, they will never get it. I was born and raised in Sussex. I'm back living in Sussex again but spent about 10 years in Luton on and off. Luton is like some areas of London. Yes it was an experience, and honestly It's not something I want repeating down here.

People need to stop comparing Brits going to Spain because the situation is completely different, in fact it is on the other end of the scale. Brits are not going to Spain and pushing another religion on them, and that is the biggest difference here.

Forgive my assumption but this sentence suggests that your main problem with multiculturalism is Muslims. If this is the case then surely the Eu factor is going to make no difference?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Forgive my assumption but this sentence suggests that your main problem with multiculturalism is Muslims. If this is the case then surely the Eu factor is going to make no difference?

It's both actually. I'm concerned the UK is heading down a bad road and on this one, as is the rest of Europe. I take that from my own experience.
Your right the EU cannot do anything about that part.

Like all religions people interpret it differently. The way it is going I have the feeling we are adopting a far more serious approach to it, and that is the part that worries me the most. Like I say comparing Brits going to Spain is completely at the other end of the scale.

Just to add, we have many illegal immigrants entering the EU zone everyday. Nobody knows how many of these arriving are of this thinking and that is the problem with the EU in that part. The problems we read about in the UK for example people going to in schools to enforce a different way of thinking, is exactly the thing I am talking about.

 

[Leighgull]

There may be reasons for the way that 72.5% voted but they still voted a certain way and that is how a democracy works (I note that you have not stated any reasons why the 22.5% voted the way they did)

My point is that there is no way you can claim that this result clearly shows that a "vast majority of Brits are fed up to the back teeth of huge immigration and EU legal impositions on our national life." It simply doesn't. It shows that 22.5% of those that voted probably have concerns about immigration and the EU (this is my bias as i cannot fathom any other reason to vote for UKIP).

So...are YOU in favour of uncontrolled inward migration? Particularly from the former soviet East...if so, well that's your position and that's fine. You just didn't answer my question.

 

[BadFish]

So...are YOU in favour of uncontrolled inward migration? Particularly from the former soviet East...if so, well that's your position and that's fine. You just didn't answer my question.

I don't live in the UK so it doesn't really matter if I am in favour of it or not.

If you want to know though, I think that immigration is a smokescreen for the real issue of the inequality in the distribution of wealth. I think that if wealth were more evenly distributed then the strain on resources and services would not be such an issue. It seems to be lower socio economic areas that struggle with integration of immigrants and I think that if we could even things up a bit then things would be less strained.