Was Mrs. T good for Britain?

[Commander]

The average wage in the UK is supposed to be £26,600, I know no-one who earns that. That is her legacy.

I really don't believe that, sorry.

 

[easynow]

 

[Icy Gull]

That puts me in mind of when I was young and used to argue with my Mum & Dad about the iniquity Thatcher visited on the mining villages. My Dad always retorted that an ex-miner who drank in his pub reckoned that the miners were overpaid, as though the opinion of one who got out before the closures could possibly represent the whole. Similarly, many miners did not have the wherewithall to retrain into different jobs, many were too old and many families did not have the social mobility to find new opportunities. Good luck to your mate but he certainly wasn't a typical representative of those smashed communities.

True but it's also untrue that all miners were left destitute as some on here seem to believe, the truth as always lies somewhere in between.

 

[Questions]

Were you wallowing in self pity or did you take a hard look at yourself and get out there and do something about it like many people did then?.................I thought not.

Well give me a chance to answer. I did get on my bike once I,d fitted new brake blocks to my penny farthing but it was hard. There were 4 million of us wallowing in self pity in those days. That was a big wallow I can tell you. It was all those lazy buggers who had their pits or factories closed that you despised wasn't it ?

Retrain to be a plumber or an electrician or maybe a carpenter - 5 years by the way - in a construction industry that was on its knees. I miss those self pitying days .

 

[soistes]

Pushing your luck here mate, if you expect most of the Thatcher fans on here to know what a Gini coefficient is.
Good graph though

 

[Diego Napier]

True but it's also untrue that all miners were left destitute as some on here seem to believe, the truth as always lies somewhere in between.

I agree with you. I suppose the reality of those miners who did suffer is a lot less immediate to us in the South as we weren't really impacted either by the polar extremes or what lay between.

 

[lawros left foot]

A third of all ex-council houses in the hands of private landlords,de-regulation of the city of London leading to massive bad practise,and selling of public utilities, leading to foreign ownership,she has certainly affected this country for the worst.

 

[Titus]

I'm pleased and somewhat surprised by this poll. A lot of people seemed to forget about the role she played in ending the cold war and in helping the peace process in Ireland.

 

[somerset]

Pushing your luck here mate, if you expect most of the Thatcher fans on here to know what a Gini coefficient is.
Good graph though

I suspect your casual derision should also include a large proportion of the non-Thatcher fans, or do you see the great unwashed as up to speed with modern economic and income distribution statistics.?

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

She did bad things but she did good things - so its the fence for me.

 

[soistes]

I suspect your casual derision should also include a large proportion of the non-Thatcher fans, or do you see the great unwashed as up to speed with modern economic and income distribution statistics.?

I wasn't aware that there was a correlation between political orientation and personal hygiene, I confess. Or is that just some ironic "casual derision" of your own?

 

[pork pie]

Fantastic. Thank you for that. It looks like it shows clearly how those who get off of their lazy arses can now make themselves a good living, since Maggie created the chances for people to free themselves from the old "working class" tag, and make something of themselves.

 

[Locky]

Whilst this is a lovely story, on a human level do you honestly believe it's point to be true?

Do you honestly believe that tens, or hundreds, of thousands of highly paid workers are just going to up-sticks and move to a far flung tax haven away from their friends and family, away from the places that they grew up, away from the cultural wealth of the Great Britain, away from where their children go to school, away from where they are settled, comfortable and know they are safe and well protected, away from where they no doubt hold a fair amount of investments - all for the sake of a few thousands of pounds in tax? I don't.

No I dont think tens, or hundreds, of thousands of highly paid workers are just going to up-sticks and move. But you miss the point.
You have to make this country attractive to large corporations / businesses if you want employment levels to rise. Never bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[pork pie]

I'm pleased and somewhat surprised by this poll. A lot of people seemed to forget about the role she played in ending the cold war and in helping the peace process in Ireland.

I am very sad that there are so many thick idiots that do not appear to understand what she did for the people of this Country.

 

[GT49er]

I wasn't aware that there was a correlation between political orientation and personal hygiene, I confess. Or is that just some ironic "casual derision" of your own?

Nice one!

Don't be too harsh, though - any Thatcherite would naturally regard all detractors of Thatcherism as 'the Great Unwashed' (which term encompasses all pinkoes, lefties, liberals, socialists and commies). In doing so, they would only be following the precepts of the lady (you can judge for yourself how much that choice of word is ironic) herself.

 

[drew]

those who remember the pre MT days will remember a country in terminal decline, MP's that were either idiots, weaklings or bordering on lunatics and a country that was bordering on third world - 30+ years and people who didn't live through it simply cannot picture what it was like.....That the country was held to complete ransom by lunatics like Scargill, Hatton and the Trade Union barons says it all - a lot of her ideas and solutions went way too far (and I certainly don't agree with all she did) but equally if she hadn't done what she did, and it couldn't be done without complete resolve and a commitment to stand her ground, we would still be third world - The North being industrialised was always going to get it worse so within reason those regions were always going to hate change - people can change history how they like but it is no co-incidence new labour, especially Blair who was definitely a follower of MT rather than previous Labour MP's, actually thought well of her and simply took her model and softened it to make it more acceptable. People should just let her rest in peace, I am sure the silent majority feel she did more good than bad when the scales are weighed up time.

So just remind us exactly what Derek Hatton did in the pre Thatcher days? However, whilst action had to be taken against the unions, I agree with your comments that it went too far. However, ludicrous to compare us to a third world country when even at that time we had the 6th largest economy in the world through out the 70s. I also don't think you can say that Blair was a follower of MT. He might have admired her personality traits in that she was determined but certainly I have never seen any reference to him fully supporting any of her policies other than maybe curbing the power of the unions.

The unions were too strong and they did hold the country to ransom, but her fix to the problem was to destroy the entire manufacturing base of the country. So yes it fixed the problem she wanted to fix, but not in a way that was good for the country. Its a bit like dealing with the pension crisis by murdering everyone over 65.

I agree, all that was required was to ensure that the unions were transparently democractic, but she created a 'them and us' conflict to actually smash the unions and return all the power to the employer. The power of the unions only arose because employers didn't exercise fairness. Look at recent attempts to go back to that where they have tried to allow employers to be able to get rid of employees for no reason.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8849420/Give-firms-freedom-to-sack-unproductive-workers-leaked-Downing-Street-report-advises.html

1. She supported the retention of capital punishment
In Certain cases I would agree with her. Perhaps you would be the one to administer the lethal injection. Perhaps you would have done so to the Birmingham 6 or the Guildford 4 or maybe to the likes of Barry George, Stephen Downing, Sally Clark etc etc. In my juvenile days I thought that capital punishment was right but maturity shows that the justice system is not perfect!
2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry
Private companys are much more efficient it would have been stupid to keep pouring good money after bad. Was it just public manufacturing companies then that were decimated?
3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
And look where we are now almost every other family being a single parent family. What utter garbage. Have you got statistics to support that statement.
4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")
Agreed,
5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)
How did it turn out ? Are you serious? Do you need reminding what deregulation of the finance sector (begun by Thatcher) led us to?
6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration
And look how that turned out. Well how did it turn out then? This country has always had periods of immigration
7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)
But didnt stop did it. What does your comment actually mean? Right to buy has continued but the problem with the Thatcher period is that the homes that were sold were not replaced
8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million
This country was a financial disaster when she came to power and like we are learning now there is no gain without pain. Very blasé. Times weren't the best but it wasn't a a financial disaster unless of course you are referring to the IMF bailout. There again I'm sure you can remember Black Monday!!![B/]
9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands
And you know this how? google HMS Endurance, don't be so lazy
10. The poll tax
Yep Agreed big mistake.
11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad
Coal was/is cheaper to import than produce ourselves. Having said that in hindsight we could do with it now. But it wasn't about viability, it was about defeating union power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridley_Plan

12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War.
Really ? [B/] Blasé again.
13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years
She privatised state monopolies and made them profitable. How hard is it to make a monopoly profitable? Easily done when you wipe out existing debt, £4.95b in respect of the water companies I believe!
14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS.
You know I have a real problem with this. Every time a Conservative Government comes to power we are told that it will be privatised. Still free aint it ? Is it? I pay for prescriptions and to go to the dentist despite it being an NHS dentist. PFIs, introduced by Major but carried on by labour, are running sections of the NHS, taking out large amounts of money. The new changes coming in will, in the opinion of many in the industry, make matters worse
15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits.
And turned us into the fourth richest country in the world. (Although of late and under a Labour goverment that has changed) But don't you see that the fall has been due to the very deregulation that you seem to praise!
16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA
Agreed.
17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control
Agreed
18. Section 28
Different times...........we have moved on. Again, very blasé
19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"
Not her finest hour. Seems strange that you don't attempt to defend her?
20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers
I can only assume she had her reasons. Are you actually aware of what the Kymer Rouge did.
21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population
And you think had she not allowed it ...it would have made any difference.
22. She opposed the reunification of Germany
Surely to insure they did not become the power house of Europe again.Giving you the benefit of the doubt, can only assume that comment is tongue in cheek!!
23. She invented Quangos
Hmm Invented really ? You're right, she didn't 'invent' them but they proliferated under her tenure.
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
And labour increased every other tax. statistics to back this up?
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
Difficult decisions quite often or not will not make you popular But you would believe from all the hyperbole from her fans that she was supported by the majority. Someone isnt right?
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
Good for her. No problem with this but wonder why all the tories slate others for their earnings post politics whether that be Livingstone, Blair et al.
27. The Al Yamamah contract
And renewed in 1993 when she was not prime minister. Renewed by the tories though
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
Agreed
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
Really ? don't remember the poll tax riots, the unrest in Brixton, Bristol, Toxteth, the encircling of Greenham Common
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
Not true...............That was under John Major Do your research. Oct 81 interest rates was 15.13% . Never went that high under Major.
31. BSE ? Whether you can blame them for the disease is questionable but their management of the problem was geared more to the economic welfare of farmers than the health of the general public. Who can forget John Selwyn Gummer feeding his young daughter a burger on tv as a PR stunt!
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
Once again hard times when we were almost bankrupt. Overly dramatic. Seems you have as much sympathy for the collateral damage to the policies as MT did herself!
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
Agreed You agree she should've excluded or just agree that is a fact. No comment to make then! At least Major took the more pragmatic view!
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
Did she? The records seem to show she was against sanctions and also her references to Mandela as nothing more than a terrorist are not disputed. However, questionable as to what support she gave to arms deals
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
And ? Cabinet members that she supported and were subsequently very badly discredited. Bad judge of character, bit like Cameron!
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
Source ? Probably not doubled but judging by the British Crime Survey graphs, increased by 40% and went on increasing until 1995 since when they have reduced.
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
Not Her ........... Again John Major presume he was confused with Black Monday! Lets just blame her for the hurricane that year instead!
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
Really ? Did she introduce the minimum wage then?
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
But the tax on the profits they make do. And they are all paying taxes, you know that do you?
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education.
Really ?
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions I think everyone is agreed that tax avoidance needs to be eliminated whether it be the super rich and their special schemes or just the local plumber doing his cash in hand job. However the crap that all the rich will leave is a joke. Don't remember seeing a mass exodus when the rate went up to 50%. It's all PR by vested interests to keep the rates as low as possible.
42. 21.9% inflation
Tell me about it !!

Not sure where this came from but don't recall anything like that.

 

[somerset]

I wasn't aware that there was a correlation between political orientation and personal hygiene, I confess. Or is that just some ironic "casual derision" of your own?

Its ironic use of reciprocal casual derision....

 

[GT49er]

As has been said before - good graph! But it could be a graph of a lot of things -

+ unemployment
+ youth unemployment
+ house prices
+ the gap between the rich and the poor
+ the average salaries of merchant *ankers and city slickers
+ British institutions (power, water, telecomms, etc.) now in foreign ownership

- to mention just a few

 

[somerset]

Nice one!

Don't be too harsh, though - any Thatcherite would naturally regard all detractors of Thatcherism as 'the Great Unwashed' (which term encompasses all pinkoes, lefties, liberals, socialists and commies). In doing so, they would only be following the precepts of the lady (you can judge for yourself how much that choice of word is ironic) herself.

There you go, a little bit of education goes a long way, your use of bracketed context and clarification is a little tedious though.

 

[pork pie]

She did bad things but she did good things - so its the fence for me.

If you do not fully understand the facts, that is a very sensible thing to do.

I get the impression that you are young, and if you did not actually live through the power cuts and utter chasos the unions had made in this country, you will never understand.

I was working in Eastbourne at the time, and was on a three day week, with my pay reduced accordingly. The streets were dark as the streetlights were all out of sync, and it was like a third world country.

Some idiots will not take the time to find out about things like that, and only listen to some left-wing bleeding hearts moan about how she smashed the unions, forgetting how it freed this country to move forward. How anyone other than the ex miners in South Yorkshire, and a few other extremist areas can moan about her is beyond me. Even the Poll Tax was a great idea because we all paid the same, rather than people who worked hard to buy nice houses, and paid tax accordingly, being forced to pay over the odds for the same local services. In fact less, because they were not the ones to use the buses etc. Unfortunately, the great unwashed did not like it because they were asked to pay their way in society.