Was Mrs. T good for Britain?

[drew]

It did happen. It was called the Brain Drain.

Any stats to back up that freqently quoted right wing propaganda?

 

[HovaGirl]

Don't rewrite history in the interests of your own ideology, like some Stalinist apparatchik

It was absolutely not a Liberal initiative.

Beveridge (who was at the time an academic economist, not a politician) was commissioned at the initiative of the Labour side in the wartime Tory-Labour coalition in 1941 to undertake a review of social insurance and welfare services. His report which, inter alia, recommended the setting up of the NHS, was then implemented after the war by the Labour Government.

The fact that Beveridge subsequently joined the Liberal party and was elected as an MP doesn't, by any stretch of a fevered imagination, make the NHS a "Liberal Party initiative".
The report was commissioned by a Labour minister in the wartime coalition (Arthur Greenwood), and was implemented by a Labour minister in a Labour Government (Nye Bevan).

And that's where the credit rightly lies.

In 1908, Churchill was President of the Board of Trade in Asquith's Liberal Government. William Beveridge was already a proponent of social reform, and had promoted ideas of free school meals, old age pensions, labour exchanges and national insurance. Churchill invited Beveridge to join the Board of Trade where he began to implement some of those ideas. After WWI, he left the Civil Service to become a director of the LSE but he served on several commissions dealing with social policy.

The Minister of Labour, Ernest Bevin, asked him to take charge of the Welfare ministry during the early stages of WWII, under Churchill's Coalition Government, but he refused. In 1941, Beveridge reluctantly agreed to chair a committee to look into social insurance. The Report on Social Insurance and Allied Services was published the following year. In 1944, Beveridge joined the Liberal Party and briefly became a Liberal MP, until the 1945 General Election. Clement Attlee, the new Labour Prime Minister, stated he would implement the National Health Service as recommended in what became known as The Beveridge Report of 1942.

So, yes, you are correct. It was a Labour initiative, promised by Attlee and cajoled through by Nye Bevan. But it evolved from Beveridge's interest in social reform 15 years earlier which had been accepted by the then Liberal, Winston Churchill, under whom it began to resurface in 1941, by which time Churchill had become a Conservative. In truth, it was a policy waiting to happen and any of the then three major parties would probably have put it through eventually.

 

[Soulman]

She kept me out of work for 2 years but I 'm sure it was for the good of the country though. She invented the cash in hand society in my trade.

I was living up the north in the early 80's until 87. The recession hit badly up there in about 82. I could not manage to get a job in my trade for a while, so i worked behind a bar and in a disco. Not ideal, but "she" did not keep me out of work. I then realised that i would have to go where the work was, so i and many others worked away all week, and went home at weekends.

 

[Questions]

I was living up the north in the early 80's until 87. The recession hit badly up there in about 82. I could not manage to get a job in my trade for a while, so i worked behind a bar and in a disco. Not ideal, but "she" did not keep me out of work. I then realised that i would have to go where the work was, so i and many others worked away all week, and went home at weekends.

Did you get on your bike Norman ? Anyway I meant a proper job.... Not serving cocktails to yuppies with red braces.

 

[banjo]

Every time I glance at this thread I read it as was Mr T good for Britain.

 

[soistes]

So, yes, you are correct. It was a Labour initiative, promised by Attlee and cajoled through by Nye Bevan.

Fair enough. That's all I was saying. I don't disagree with the rest of your post.
You might also have mentioned Beveridge's strong links with the Fabian socialists (Webbs etc) but never mind.

 

[Soulman]

Did you get on your bike Norman ? Anyway I meant a proper job.... Not serving cocktails to yuppies with red braces.

Nice sly dig,condesending even, but unfortunately, sorry to disappoint you, it was " Not serving cocktails to yuppies with red braces". It was not in London, i served normal people, working class people because that was the area that i was living in. I normally worked on the nights and days that people were out enjoying themselves, like weekends. Many that had signed on hours earlier.
So i took a job, as i said, until i managed to find work in my trade. I think your "Anyway i mean't a proper job" is a bit insulting to many that work at this "proper job".
Yes, i did get on my "bike"....what was wrong with that eh.

 

[HovaGirl]

Any stats to back up that freqently quoted right wing propaganda?

The Guardian, Tuesday 6 November 2012 17.47 GMT
QUOTE The Office of National Statistics says emigration from Britain rose sharply over the past decade from 363,000 a year to a peak of 427,000 in 2008. Since then it has fallen back to 350,000 a year. Long-term migrants are defined as those who move abroad for at least 12 months. . . . The Home Office study says a large and increasing proportion of British citizens moving abroad are those from the professional or managerial occupations and this has implications for the future availability of skills in Britain. This group made up just over a third or 37% of British emigrants in 1991 but reached nearly half or 48% in 2010 after a steady year-on-year rise until the global recession of 2008. Most moved abroad to a definite job rather than simply speculative looking for work. ENDQUOTE

http://discover.ukdataservice.ac.uk/catalogue?sn=6099
QUOTE The term 'brain drain' was adopted in the 1960s in the context of concerns the United Kingdom was losing skilled scientific and engineering personnel to other countries. Although the term is used in a variety of academic, policy and popular discussions about the international mobility of scientists, this project sought to rectify the absence of scholarly literature analysing the original 'brain drain' debate. ENDQUOTE


Biggest brain drain from UK in 50 years - Telegraph
QUOTE
By Robert Winnett, Deputy Political Editor
12:01AM GMT 21 Feb 2008
Britain is experiencing the worst "brain drain" of any country as highly qualified professionals settle abroad, an authoritative international study showed yesterday. Record numbers of Britons are leaving - many of them doctors, teachers and engineers - in the biggest exodus for almost 50 years. There are now 3.247 million British-born people living abroad, of whom more than 1.1 million are highly-skilled university graduates, say the researchers. ENDQUOTE


The new brain drain? - Business Analysis Features - Business - The Independent
QUOTE
Under Denis Healey, the Labour Chancellor of the mid-Seventies, there were 10 different rates of income tax, including a 35p basic rate and an 83 per cent top rate on earnings over £20,000. And then there was a 98 per cent tax band for investment income. That was enough to encourage some high earners to quit the UK for less punitive tax regimes. Stars from showbusiness made big headlines: Rod Stewart quit the UK in 1975 after a row over tax, for example, while the Rolling Stones spent much of the Seventies outside the UK for, in part at least, tax reasons. However, it was an exodus of other types of worker that really worried policymakers – in particular, the number of scientists quitting the UK rose sharply in the early Seventies, though this was a trend that began in the 1960s, with America's higher salaries attracting many. Tony Benn, then the industry minister, was so concerned he made trips to American universities to appeal to British students studying overseas to return home on graduation. ENDQUOTE

 

[Soulman]

The Guardian, Tuesday 6 November 2012 17.47 GMT
QUOTE The Office of National Statistics says emigration from Britain rose sharply over the past decade from 363,000 a year to a peak of 427,000 in 2008. Since then it has fallen back to 350,000 a year. Long-term migrants are defined as those who move abroad for at least 12 months. . . . The Home Office study says a large and increasing proportion of British citizens moving abroad are those from the professional or managerial occupations and this has implications for the future availability of skills in Britain. This group made up just over a third or 37% of British emigrants in 1991 but reached nearly half or 48% in 2010 after a steady year-on-year rise until the global recession of 2008. Most moved abroad to a definite job rather than simply speculative looking for work. ENDQUOTE

http://discover.ukdataservice.ac.uk/catalogue?sn=6099
QUOTE The term 'brain drain' was adopted in the 1960s in the context of concerns the United Kingdom was losing skilled scientific and engineering personnel to other countries. Although the term is used in a variety of academic, policy and popular discussions about the international mobility of scientists, this project sought to rectify the absence of scholarly literature analysing the original 'brain drain' debate. ENDQUOTE


Biggest brain drain from UK in 50 years - Telegraph
QUOTE
By Robert Winnett, Deputy Political Editor
12:01AM GMT 21 Feb 2008
Britain is experiencing the worst "brain drain" of any country as highly qualified professionals settle abroad, an authoritative international study showed yesterday. Record numbers of Britons are leaving - many of them doctors, teachers and engineers - in the biggest exodus for almost 50 years. There are now 3.247 million British-born people living abroad, of whom more than 1.1 million are highly-skilled university graduates, say the researchers. ENDQUOTE


The new brain drain? - Business Analysis Features - Business - The Independent
QUOTE
Under Denis Healey, the Labour Chancellor of the mid-Seventies, there were 10 different rates of income tax, including a 35p basic rate and an 83 per cent top rate on earnings over £20,000. And then there was a 98 per cent tax band for investment income. That was enough to encourage some high earners to quit the UK for less punitive tax regimes. Stars from showbusiness made big headlines: Rod Stewart quit the UK in 1975 after a row over tax, for example, while the Rolling Stones spent much of the Seventies outside the UK for, in part at least, tax reasons. However, it was an exodus of other types of worker that really worried policymakers – in particular, the number of scientists quitting the UK rose sharply in the early Seventies, though this was a trend that began in the 1960s, with America's higher salaries attracting many. Tony Benn, then the industry minister, was so concerned he made trips to American universities to appeal to British students studying overseas to return home on graduation. ENDQUOTE

Good links. Surprised you managed to get one from the Guardian as well.....that should please a few.

 

[kemptown kid]

If you lived through the years before she came to office with the country crippled by the power of the unions and long drawn out strikes that they initiated virtually every week somewhere, you might see her in a different light. She was exactly what this country needed imo. Her voice, condescending manner, her stubborness and her inability to compromise didn't help her cause in the eyes of many though.

Absolute rubbish. I lived through the seventies and urge anyone who didn't to ignore the ludicrous hype about Thatcher saving the nation, by tripling unemployment and wrecking British industry with total contempt for whole swathes of the population who never did and never would vote for her party. Icy G might try to remember/understand why people went/go on strike (pay, conditions, protecting their jobs and rights) and consider whether workers are better or worse off with strong trade unions to fight their corner.

 

[somerset]

Absolute rubbish. I lived through the seventies and urge anyone who didn't to ignore the ludicrous hype about Thatcher saving the nation, by tripling unemployment and wrecking British industry with total contempt for whole swathes of the population who never did and never would vote for her party. Icy G might try to remember/understand why people went/go on strike (pay, conditions, protecting their jobs and rights) and consider whether workers are better or worse off with strong trade unions to fight their corner.

For goodness sake, she won three consecutive elections, and beyond that the conservatives won a fourth under Major, something was appealing to the electorate.

 

[soistes]

For goodness sake, she won three consecutive elections, and beyond that the conservatives won a fourth under Major, something was appealing to the electorate.

But as many posts on here confirm, there was a significant proportion of the electorate (albeit not a majority at that time, agreed) which she not only alienated, but who continue to hold her in contempt more than twenty years after she left office. There might, possibly, just be a reason for that strength of feeling, as kemptown kid rightly observes.

 

[somerset]

But as many posts on here confirm, there was a significant proportion of the electorate (albeit not a majority at that time, agreed) which she not only alienated, but who continue to hold her in contempt more than twenty years after she left office. There might, possibly, just be a reason for that strength of feeling, as kemptown kid rightly observes.

I was there, my friends and family were there, people I know who supported her then, also supported her achievements in the years since.... I am a bit confused where your assertions originate!!... You must know of course that plenty of comments on here this week come from individuals who were not there, did not live it, and draw conclusions from here say, anecdotal commentary and propaganda..... All subjective, all no substitute for the real thing.

Remember, 4 consecutive elections.

 

[Questions]

Nice sly dig,condesending even, but unfortunately, sorry to disappoint you, it was " Not serving cocktails to yuppies with red braces". It was not in London, i served normal people, working class people because that was the area that i was living in. I normally worked on the nights and days that people were out enjoying themselves, like weekends. Many that had signed on hours earlier.
So i took a job, as i said, until i managed to find work in my trade. I think your "Anyway i mean't a proper job" is a bit insulting to many that work at this "proper job".
Yes, i did get on my "bike"....what was wrong with that eh.

Nothing wrong with any of it. You did what you had to do.
Don't get the signing on earlier bit but never mind.

 

[drew]

The Guardian, Tuesday 6 November 2012 17.47 GMT
QUOTE The Office of National Statistics says emigration from Britain rose sharply over the past decade from 363,000 a year to a peak of 427,000 in 2008. Since then it has fallen back to 350,000 a year. Long-term migrants are defined as those who move abroad for at least 12 months. . . . The Home Office study says a large and increasing proportion of British citizens moving abroad are those from the professional or managerial occupations and this has implications for the future availability of skills in Britain. This group made up just over a third or 37% of British emigrants in 1991 but reached nearly half or 48% in 2010 after a steady year-on-year rise until the global recession of 2008. Most moved abroad to a definite job rather than simply speculative looking for work. ENDQUOTE

http://discover.ukdataservice.ac.uk/catalogue?sn=6099
QUOTE The term 'brain drain' was adopted in the 1960s in the context of concerns the United Kingdom was losing skilled scientific and engineering personnel to other countries. Although the term is used in a variety of academic, policy and popular discussions about the international mobility of scientists, this project sought to rectify the absence of scholarly literature analysing the original 'brain drain' debate. ENDQUOTE


Biggest brain drain from UK in 50 years - Telegraph
QUOTE
By Robert Winnett, Deputy Political Editor
12:01AM GMT 21 Feb 2008
Britain is experiencing the worst "brain drain" of any country as highly qualified professionals settle abroad, an authoritative international study showed yesterday. Record numbers of Britons are leaving - many of them doctors, teachers and engineers - in the biggest exodus for almost 50 years. There are now 3.247 million British-born people living abroad, of whom more than 1.1 million are highly-skilled university graduates, say the researchers. ENDQUOTE


The new brain drain? - Business Analysis Features - Business - The Independent
QUOTE
Under Denis Healey, the Labour Chancellor of the mid-Seventies, there were 10 different rates of income tax, including a 35p basic rate and an 83 per cent top rate on earnings over £20,000. And then there was a 98 per cent tax band for investment income. That was enough to encourage some high earners to quit the UK for less punitive tax regimes. Stars from showbusiness made big headlines: Rod Stewart quit the UK in 1975 after a row over tax, for example, while the Rolling Stones spent much of the Seventies outside the UK for, in part at least, tax reasons. However, it was an exodus of other types of worker that really worried policymakers – in particular, the number of scientists quitting the UK rose sharply in the early Seventies, though this was a trend that began in the 1960s, with America's higher salaries attracting many. Tony Benn, then the industry minister, was so concerned he made trips to American universities to appeal to British students studying overseas to return home on graduation. ENDQUOTE

Fair play for digging those up but they don't necessarily give all the reasons for the emigration nor give any indication as to whether the professional jobs are being taken up by equally talented overseas applicants. A quick google searched revealed the following from the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9177635/Glut-of-NHS-doctors-by-2020-report-warns.html

You could also look at the fact that there are far more graduates out there now than ever before with far fewer jobs to go to. Figures quoted of 83 applicants for every graduate post. It could therefore be argued that they leave because they don't actually have jobs, and possibly, and maybe regrettably, are surplus to the requirements of employers.

 

[GT49er]

There you go, a little bit of education goes a long way, your use of bracketed context and clarification is a little tedious though.

Rather less tedious than your incorrect punctuation, in my opinion. Obviously they don't teach the proper use of commas any more.

 

[vegster]

You must be in the wrong job, then. I've had lots of builders and such round lately, and they charge about £120 a day. My son, on the other hand, earns £11,000 a year, but he is trying to do something about it by studying and hoping to change career.

I'm not a builder,but I'm about 20 years too old to study and retrain for another job. other than facing minimum wage jobs, i'm stuffed.

 

[BadFish]

I'm not a builder,but I'm about 20 years too old to study and retrain for another job. other than facing minimum wage jobs, i'm stuffed.

Lots of people study when older, it isn't too late and surely worth it if the alternative is minimum wage?

 

[HovaGirl]

I was living up the north in the early 80's until 87. The recession hit badly up there in about 82. I could not manage to get a job in my trade for a while, so i worked behind a bar and in a disco. Not ideal, but "she" did not keep me out of work. I then realised that i would have to go where the work was, so i and many others worked away all week, and went home at weekends.

My husband has had to do that since 1978 after 6 months on the dole, though he comes home every night from his job in London.

 

[HovaGirl]

Absolute rubbish. I lived through the seventies and urge anyone who didn't to ignore the ludicrous hype about Thatcher saving the nation, by tripling unemployment and wrecking British industry with total contempt for whole swathes of the population who never did and never would vote for her party. Icy G might try to remember/understand why people went/go on strike (pay, conditions, protecting their jobs and rights) and consider whether workers are better or worse off with strong trade unions to fight their corner.

No, this is rubbish. Labour and the unions had brought the country to its knees and anyone who denies that really hasn't got their thinking caps on. My father was an International Socialist (IS) in those days, and a Shop Steward and his reading matter was Morning Star. When his colleagues voted at IS and Labour Party meetings, they would drone on debating until the small hours, waiting for all the moderates to go home, and then vote in favour of the extreme Left-wing policies which so damaged Labour for almost two decades. He told me that tactic was used all over the country at the time.